The Arcane thread - Page 183

Astrylian · 09/16/09, 12:15 PM

No. The math has been done, and the best use of 4T8 is to ignore it, and go back to Blasting. See Rawr for details. (Yes, this does mean that 4T8 is nearly worthless for Arcane.)

magealexis · 09/17/09, 7:41 AM

I apologize if this was answered elsewhere, I've looked and have not seen this dealt with.

I have some questions about the benefit of haste cooldowns/potions. Particularly due to the fact that spell cast time uses each modifier successively, thus producing diminishing returns.

According to a post earlier in this thread, Potion of Speed provides the greatest DPS boost for an Arcane Mage. But, presumably, that's at a normal pace-with no other haste modifiers but Netherwind Presence the Potion of Speed. In that case it's providing a cast time difference of 0.26307144541434 seconds per AB cast. With Icy Veins and Netherwind Presence it's a difference of 0.21922620451195 seconds. With Netherwind Presence, Wrath of Air, Heroism and Icy Veins it's only a 0.160605311377842 second difference whether you use the Potion of Speed or not.

Note the diminishing returns? Obviously, this is only taking into account the returns for the ABx3 part of the rotation, not AM, or ABarr should you be using them. I'm currently popping my trinket and AP at the same time as IV to maximize the damage I deal with it, and I try to tie it to heroism (if we have a shammy) and a Potion of Speed for the same reason-use the damage buffs while the cast time is reduced to increase dps. I just don't know for sure that it's the best I can do anymore.

Is it still best to use Potion of Speed? Or is it better then to use Potion of Wild Magic, as it wouldn't be affected by the diminishing returns? Or is it better to still use Potion of Speed-but use it while not under the influence of your other haste modifiers, so as to get a larger benefit from it? I really don't know where to go from here, to see which benefits me more. Any/all advice is much appreciated.

*Those numbers were calculated using the formula for final cast time located on the first page of this thread.

Saioran · 09/17/09, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by magealexis

I apologize if this was answered elsewhere, I've looked and have not seen this dealt with.

I have some questions about the benefit of haste cooldowns/potions. Particularly due to the fact that spell cast time uses each modifier successively, thus producing diminishing returns.

According to a post earlier in this thread, Potion of Speed provides the greatest DPS boost for an Arcane Mage. But, presumably, that's at a normal pace-with no other haste modifiers but Netherwind Presence the Potion of Speed. In that case it's providing a cast time difference of 0.26307144541434 seconds per AB cast. With Icy Veins and Netherwind Presence it's a difference of 0.21922620451195 seconds. With Netherwind Presence, Wrath of Air, Heroism and Icy Veins it's only a 0.160605311377842 second difference whether you use the Potion of Speed or not.

Note the diminishing returns? Obviously, this is only taking into account the returns for the ABx3 part of the rotation, not AM, or ABarr should you be using them. I'm currently popping my trinket and AP at the same time as IV to maximize the damage I deal with it, and I try to tie it to heroism (if we have a shammy) and a Potion of Speed for the same reason-use the damage buffs while the cast time is reduced to increase dps. I just don't know for sure that it's the best I can do anymore.

Is it still best to use Potion of Speed? Or is it better then to use Potion of Wild Magic, as it wouldn't be affected by the diminishing returns? Or is it better to still use Potion of Speed-but use it while not under the influence of your other haste modifiers, so as to get a larger benefit from it? I really don't know where to go from here, to see which benefits me more. Any/all advice is much appreciated.

*Those numbers were calculated using the formula for final cast time located on the first page of this thread.

Ignoring the fact that haste scales multiplicaly, which actually makes using several haste effects at the same time preferable, I'm just gonna throw in some really simple math here.

There is "diminishing returns" on the cast time reduction only, not the dps increase.

Lets say you have a 2000dmg spell on a 2 sec cast time. The spell would be 1000dps

adding 10% haste would lower the cast time with about 0.19 sec. The dps of the spell would now be 2000/1.8181818181818181 = 1100

adding another 10% haste would lower the cast time with about 0.14sec. The dps of the spell would now be 2000/1.6666666666666 = 1200

Both cases are the same dps increase.

Lileith · 09/17/09, 8:22 AM

First you should use significant figures (0.21922620451195 seconds -> 0.219 seconds ).

You can't estimate your dps gain based on an absolute value (seconds). With 10% haste, you are casting 10% faster regardless of your original cast times.
If you are casting fireballs you will gain 0.28 seconds. If you are casting scorch you will gain 0.14 seconds.
In both case your dps will go up by 10%.

There are diminishing returns, but not as bad as you seems to think. When you go from 0 to 1% haste your dps goes up by 1%. But when you go from 1% to 2% haste your dps only goes up by 0.99% (102-101)/101.
But this only affect haste rating since other effect such as Heroism and Icy Veins stacks multiplicatively.

Queal · 09/17/09, 8:32 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

No. The math has been done, and the best use of 4T8 is to ignore it, and go back to Blasting. See Rawr for details. (Yes, this does mean that 4T8 is nearly worthless for Arcane.)

4T8 bonus will be especially useless in 3.2.2 when you get 40% proc change on AB to proc MB and on top of that MB will not consume mana.
You should have a MB proc by the time you reach 3 stacks of AB (most of the times, not guaranteed though :-))

The issue of 'do I have a MB proc by the time I reach 3 stacks or not' will no longer be valid with this change. You can pretty much rely on this to come up for you. Rendering the 4T8 useless for Arcane.

Not consuming a Hot Streak for Fire mages is another thing though, that's where this 4T8 comes in handy

Pasture · 09/17/09, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Queal

4T8 bonus will be especially useless in 3.2.2 when you get 40% proc change on AB to proc MB and on top of that MB will not consume mana.
You should have a MB proc by the time you reach 3 stacks of AB (most of the times, not guaranteed though :-))

The issue of 'do I have a MB proc by the time I reach 3 stacks or not' will no longer be valid with this change. You can pretty much rely on this to come up for you. Rendering the 4T8 useless for Arcane.

The 4xt8 set bonus is a bit moot when it comes to 3.2.2 Arcane Mages. I'd dropped my four set within a few weeks of the Colliseum going live. I can't imagine many raiding Arcane Mages in 3.2.2 will still have the 4xt8 bonus. 4xt8 was barely worth having in the first place for Arcane and now that higher ilevel gear is easily accessible keeping the 4xt8 as an arcane Mage is just an incredibly bad choice.

savathras · 09/17/09, 1:46 PM

Something entirely different but I think I'm allowed to ask ;-)

I have been trying to figure out the best rotation to use from asking different mages ingame but they all tell me different. The point is, I'm not sure whether to use ABx3AM regardless of the proc, or use ABarr without a proc ('cause I seem to remember that's what it was always like). Up until this point I believed that using ABx3Abarr is better than using an unprocced AM after ABx3.

So this still leaves me with my question: I cast 2xAB, and there is no proc yet. Then I can do 3 things:

1. I cast the third AB, MB procs, but I have to wait 1 second to see if it procced in my interface (reaction speed), and then I obviously cast AM. I lose 1 second ish of DPSing here

2. I cast the third AB, MB does not proc, but I have to wait 1 second to see that it didn't proc (reaction speed), and then I obviously cast ABarr (because according to the above poster, that's more DPS) I lose 1 second ish of DPSing here

3. I cast the third AB, and regardless of the proc, I just cast AM instantly. Reaction speed = zero, and I don't lose a second of DPSing here.

If an unprocced AM is better than ABarr (aka. there is no use for AB at all except when moving), then the answer is easy: Always use situation 3. But since I don't know what results in better DPS, which do I pick? Is it still better to wait a second and then use ABarr even if that second is a loss of DPS?

Please enlighten me :-)

Thanks.

Focal · 09/17/09, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by savathras

Something entirely different but I think I'm allowed to ask ;-)

I have been trying to figure out the best rotation to use from asking different mages ingame but they all tell me different. The point is, I'm not sure whether to use ABx3AM regardless of the proc, or use ABarr without a proc ('cause I seem to remember that's what it was always like). Up until this point I believed that using ABx3Abarr is better than using an unprocced AM after ABx3.

So this still leaves me with my question: I cast 2xAB, and there is no proc yet. Then I can do 3 things:

1. I cast the third AB, MB procs, but I have to wait 1 second to see if it procced in my interface (reaction speed), and then I obviously cast AM. I lose 1 second ish of DPSing here

2. I cast the third AB, MB does not proc, but I have to wait 1 second to see that it didn't proc (reaction speed), and then I obviously cast ABarr (because according to the above poster, that's more DPS) I lose 1 second ish of DPSing here

3. I cast the third AB, and regardless of the proc, I just cast AM instantly. Reaction speed = zero, and I don't lose a second of DPSing here.

If an unprocced AM is better than ABarr (aka. there is no use for AB at all except when moving), then the answer is easy: Always use situation 3. But since I don't know what results in better DPS, which do I pick? Is it still better to wait a second and then use ABarr even if that second is a loss of DPS?

Please enlighten me :-)

Thanks.

You should not be using an unproc'd AM. It comes down to your mana situation. If it's good you can continue to spam AB and fish for an MB proc. If its bad I ABx3Abarr and reset.

savathras · 09/17/09, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Focal

You should not be using an unproc'd AM. It comes down to your mana situation. If it's good you can continue to spam AB and fish for an MB proc. If its bad I ABx3Abarr and reset.

So does that mean I should just instacast an ABarr after the third AB, and use a possible proc from those spells the next rotation?

Astrylian · 09/17/09, 3:47 PM

Please make sure you know what you're talking about before giving advice here.

First, use Rawr. It will tell you the correct rotations for you.

The highest DPS rotation for almost all raiding arcane mages is ABSpam with MBAM on 3stack. However, the mana consumption of that isn't remotely sustainable, so should only be used under extreme circumstances like XT heart phases, and during cooldown usage.

The highest remotely-sustainable DPS rotation for almost all raiding arcane mages is ABx3MBAMABarr. aka, if you don't visibly have a MB proc up when casting the 3rd blast, ABarr. If you do, MBAM.

However, just plain AB3AM is only slightly less DPS (on the order for 1% or so), and significantly less MPS (on the order of 30%). Because of this, it's the standard that should be used in almost any situation where mana is at all a concern. This is the correct rotation for you, most likely.

Finally, use Rawr. Really. It can tell you these things in no uncertain terms, specifically for your character and situation.

germanator · 09/17/09, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by savathras
So does that mean I should just instacast an ABarr after the third AB, and use a possible proc from those spells the next rotation?

As what is modeled on the 1st page, one can conclude you should nearly never use Arcane Barrage (only when you need to move, when you can only cast instants, and when you have 1 second left on your spellpower/crit/crit bonus buff (not haste however).

Using ArcBar after a third AB yields about 1% more dps but at the cost of 18% more mana usage per second from the traditional ABx3 AM rotation.

Even using Mbam after 2 abs is worth it (less than 1% lost dps and you lose 9% mana usage per second(which is a good thing)). This rotation is especcially optimal if you dont have long before your cooldowns disppear.

And to Focal, an unbuffed AM is worth it, after 3 ABs, because you regain so much mana while casting the Arcane Missles. If you wanted to burn mana then you would just spam AB till you get MBAM buff, and then cast only after 3 AB buffs.

You will need all the mana you can get in arcane, bug druids/priests/resto shamans to use their mana cooldowns, and Evocate when you get the Hymn of Hope max mana buff. Since mana = dps and going oom = a pooly sustained AB AM rotation until your mana cooldown comes up. Ive got alot experience in this: im usually the top dmg/dps dealer in our raids, and having been Arc/Frost in BC for about half a year, raiding for a few months after Lich King talents came out, and raiding about another 4 months to present in Lich King; im aware of how the arcane rotation has changed.

Yes take Astrylian's advice and get Rawr, I've been using it for about a year now, works wonders for me by supplying numerical data. When you look at rotations, be sure to take note of the dps and the mana usage per second(aka mps).

Ipsissimus · 09/17/09, 5:17 PM

Savathras,

May I ask which add-on/s are you using to monitor your procs?
On graphical information heavy encounters, the proc triggering a sound effect will usually result in a faster execution of the Missile Barrage.

cbreak · 09/18/09, 7:00 AM

Originally Posted by Ipsissimus

Savathras,

May I ask which add-on/s are you using to monitor your procs?
On graphical information heavy encounters, the proc triggering a sound effect will usually result in a faster execution of the Missile Barrage.

I spend a few hours to optimize my proc/power display.

I use Satrina's Buff Frames with a special bar for short living buffs. The main buff and debuff area is configured to look like the standard blizard frames. The special area is in the center of the screen near the Hud (IceHud). It shows only buffs from myself with a duration of 30 seconds or less. That way I see all my procs (MB, Trinkets, T7, ...), active effects (AP, IV, ...) right in the center. I also use IceHud's counter feature to show the number of stacks of AB just above the buffs. In addition I wrote a small addon that shows my current spell damage (influenced by Incanter's Absorbtion and all the other buffs I might have: SpellDamage).
In addition to those status mods, I use Mik's Scrolling Battle Text, which displays changes in textual form. It can also play sounds on certain events. I only use that for general debuffs (so I notice when I have to move out of fire and all the other debuffs), but it can be configured for very specific events.
That way I have all the information I'll need to react on fast. The only problem is finding time to process it.

It looks like this

But in the end, the general rotation seems to be stack-ab-to-max-then-am-to-release.

savathras · 09/18/09, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by germanator

As what is modeled on the 1st page, one can conclude you should nearly never use Arcane Barrage (only when you need to move, when you can only cast instants, and when you have 1 second left on your spellpower/crit/crit bonus buff (not haste however).

Using ArcBar after a third AB yields about 1% more dps but at the cost of 18% more mana usage per second from the traditional ABx3 AM rotation.

Even using Mbam after 2 abs is worth it (less than 1% lost dps and you lose 9% mana usage per second(which is a good thing)). This rotation is especcially optimal if you dont have long before your cooldowns disppear.

And to Focal, an unbuffed AM is worth it, after 3 ABs, because you regain so much mana while casting the Arcane Missles. If you wanted to burn mana then you would just spam AB till you get MBAM buff, and then cast only after 3 AB buffs.

You will need all the mana you can get in arcane, bug druids/priests/resto shamans to use their mana cooldowns, and Evocate when you get the Hymn of Hope max mana buff. Since mana = dps and going oom = a pooly sustained AB AM rotation until your mana cooldown comes up. Ive got alot experience in this: im usually the top dmg/dps dealer in our raids, and having been Arc/Frost in BC for about half a year, raiding for a few months after Lich King talents came out, and raiding about another 4 months to present in Lich King; im aware of how the arcane rotation has changed.

Yes take Astrylian's advice and get Rawr, I've been using it for about a year now, works wonders for me by supplying numerical data. When you look at rotations, be sure to take note of the dps and the mana usage per second(aka mps).

Firstly thanks for taking the time to answer my question! It's all pretty clear to me now, especially for a Mage like me who hasn't got the best of gear yet (I recently got it to level 80).

The thing about Rawr is that I'm running on a Macintosh and I seem unable to get Rawr to work at all. There's lots of guides out there but apparently it's always buggy and whenever I emulate it through an application like Mono or CrossOver, I get an error before it even starts. So that's a shame, especially since I know how useful it is.

@Ipsissimus:

I'm using SBF, Scorchio2 and MSBT. MSBT gives me an enormous screen message when MISSILE BARRAGE procs, Scorchio2 plays a notification sound and a length bar in the middle of my screen. In addition, SBF obviously displays it as a buff. Thanks for your reply though, the sound idea I already had a while ago ;-)

cbreak · 09/18/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by savathras

The thing about Rawr is that I'm running on a Macintosh and I seem unable to get Rawr to work at all. There's lots of guides out there but apparently it's always buggy and whenever I emulate it through an application like Mono or CrossOver, I get an error before it even starts. So that's a shame, especially since I know how useful it is.

It works fine in VMWare, but that's more or less like running Windows anyway.