Without being able to properly model it in Rawr, I was wondering if the discussion of Glyphed Mage Armor vs Glyphed Molten Armor shouldn't be reevaluated when we are suggesting Blast spam until Missile Barrage Procs. So I set off to do some tests.

Even prior to this hotfix, the difference between Molten and Mage in a modeled situation have been relatively close.

Plugging my gear and all raid buffs into Rawr, I come out with these numbers. Remember, for DPS numbers, Rawr currently isn't modeling blast spam for MB procs. Mana Regen numbers are calculated in Rawr with replenishment buffs/totems in mind. These numbers will be inflated more then they would be base.

Mage armor glyph DPS: 6341
Mage armor glyph mana regen in 5 second rule: 933
Molten Armor glyph DPS: 6402
Molten armor glyph mana regin in 5 second rule: 661

The difference in regen is a mere 272 per 5. I would wager to say that this is fairly irrelevant given the 1722 mana cost of full stacked Arcane Blast. In a three minute fight (as I used to model the above numbers) this would be a gain of 9520 mana using mage over molten armor (+relative glyph). 5.5 fully stacked blasts over that time. I feel it's probably not worth it.

My findings were similar when modeling a 5 and a 6 minute fight, but the DPS difference between the two did narrow a small bit.

I thought I would post my findings here in case anyone else was having the same thoughts of mage vs molten that I did. If I'm missing something, feel free to correct me.

I'm not forgetting them, it's just not really relevant to the argument. The fact is that changes in crit result in larger shifts in balance than % modifiers to damage do; thus, the presence or absence of the crit debuff results in a larger relative performance shift than the presence or absence of a % damage modifier. This has nothing to do with the relative performance of mages and other classes -- as you describe, if the crit rate from the debuff is decreased, Mages could easily be compensated by adding a self-only bonus to the same talents.

The relative performance problem isn't Mage-specific. A 10% change in crit rate will have a much greater effect on the performance of a Destruction Warlock vs. an Affliction Warlock, for example. It's in their best interest to try to hold these relative fluctuations to a minimum regardless of raid composition.

I am fairly certain that those numbers are far off reality. Recalling what I had in raids:

660 mp5 is what I have out of combat in raids. ~550-570 in combat MP5 with mage armor.
I expect molten armor to be far lower.

I bet what Rawr is doing is calculating it with Vamp Embrace and other replenishment types included.

*edit* I just checked and this is indeed the case. Doesn't really change the calculations or the conclusion however. I will make a point of editing my above post to reflect this though.

So with the clipping changes, after the Glyph AM Bug gets fixed, will Arcane still do more damage than FFB in optimal gear?

yes but by a much smaller amount.

Come ulduar though, FFB will probly pull back ahead as it's scaling is stronger than arcane.

This and 57/3/11 with pretty average gear (i.e. no turning tide or IDS), without an arcane blast glyph at all is still better than FFB in optimal gear with razorice according to my rawr calculations (fully buffed raid-setting / 160 sec fight)

Because right now, fire/arcane isn't really viable due to it's mana consumption.

using RAWR with my gear set (almost optimal sets for fire or arcane) I am getting Arcane 1% less than Fire now at best, assumming a 6% drop due to the nerf - unless Arcane can squeeze an extra cooldown in due to timing. This gap increases the longer the fight lasts and through gear scaling through T8 onwards. Only time arcane shines is sub 2 minute fights, which is flashy for 5 and 10 man boss fights maybe, but irrelevant where it matters.

Based on the fact you have to do a hell of a lot more work for no dps gain + no scorch + risk from mana drains etc it just doesnt seem worth it anymore at the moment - which is a pity because it is much more interesting to play.

I don't know if Rawr has been or is currently accurate regarding mage DPS. FFB is much further ahead for me according to Rawr, and I have checked it several times for correct input. My instinct and just general damage meters don't agree with this though. Magegraf atm has me casting FFB in arcane rotations, so no help there either.

Any concensus between hitting MBAM as soon as available, vs. only hitting it at 0-stack or 3-stack? (Smizzle/Pintofbrew/Kavan)

I can set to spec-only glyphs or just check off every glyph. All relevant mp5 buffs are on, fight lengths are short.

FFB: 3275
FB: 2998
Arc (57/3/11): 2659-2800 (mage vs molten armor)

Obviously not correct. Last night in a 10 man 3d (and I did no ae) I had 5k w/ arcane. I am only trusting rawr in regards to individual upgrades at this point.

Im not entirely sure this is an accurate statement. Before the arcane changes, I was playing an 18/53/0 build with glyphed Molten armor and had no mana issues at all. Ive actually had more mana issues since swapping to arcane, but thats a 2 part issue of not having ran a real 25 man since, and still learning the ins and outs of the spec.

Granted, Im not at the very bleeding edge gear wise, but I was hit capped and sitting around 2050 sp completely unbuffed.

I'd like to add a note though for those who aren't gifted with a good guild/server and thus don't down Patch in under 3 minutes that using 300 second fights, arcane falls behind Razorice FFB. And for my Rawr settings, anyway, even at 160 seconds arcane is only ahead by less than 1%. No Razorice gives it a clear 5% advantage but arcane+scorch remains behind FFB for the debuff-supplier of the raid.

What? I've raided with that a few times, and it works fine.

What surprised me was that arcane without Turning Tide and IDS, without an AB glyph at all + disabled combos had 6000+ DPS under those settings. I double checked my settings but nonetheless it could very well be that i screwed something up in Rawr.

Edit: 160 seconds is probably the optimal fight length for arcane, allowing double use of cd's in the shortest possible timeframe, therefore the results are kind of misleading.

Edit: please delete wrong thread.

Can someone check my math to make sure Netherwind Presence is actually giving 6% haste.

I have (according to the panel and verified by adding my gear numbers up) 536 haste (16.35%).

Netherwind Presence fully talented for another 6%.

According to my Arc Blast count, it's a 2.03s cast now.

Shouldn't that be 1.94?

Can someone verify that they are getting 6% haste from Netherwind.

Looks like Manly has 570 haste (17.38+6% for 23.38%).

Is your arc blast cast time 1.92s?

2.5 / 1.1635 / 1.06 = 2.0271 ~= 2.03

Not additive? That's explains it Thanks!

Please refer to the first post. Haste values are not calculated the way you are doing them.

short example: 536 haste =~ 16.35%

final_cast_time = 2.5 / 1.1635 / 1.06 = 2.03s

Thanks guys! Any word on if Arc Missles is hotfixed to benefit from the Arc Blast 3% glyph?

Raiding in 60 minutes, wanted to check.