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Old 02/16/10, 12:26 PM   #3496
 Seonid
Commander Nexus
 
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Human Mage
 
Anachronos (EU)
For me in full raid buffs, Rawr has the Glyph of AP at 57 dps and MA at 230 dps. It's not even close to being a decision which to be fair is expected, when you consider comparing a 3 second extension to an ability on a 2 minute CD, versus a flat % crit modifier for the entire duration of the fight. Even losing the T9 2 set is only a marginal change.

The Mage theme song.
From the moment that the trading ship, Avalonia, slipped its orbital berth above the planet Lave, and began to manoeuvre for the hyperspace jump point, its measureable life-span, and that of one of its two-man crew, was exactly eighteen minutes.

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Old 02/17/10, 6:49 PM   #3497
Pasture
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Mage
 
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
Originally Posted by Seonid View Post
For me in full raid buffs, Rawr has the Glyph of AP at 57 dps and MA at 230 dps. It's not even close to being a decision which to be fair is expected, when you consider comparing a 3 second extension to an ability on a 2 minute CD, versus a flat % crit modifier for the entire duration of the fight. Even losing the T9 2 set is only a marginal change.
Well, it's a 1,40 cooldown for starters and the flat value of an extra 3 seconds on Arcane Power is likely greatly increased in conjunction with cooldown stacking. I'm not suggesting it competes with Molten Armour, but I can see why people are contemplating switching

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Old 02/18/10, 4:17 AM   #3498
Light4
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
Well, it's a 1,40 cooldown for starters and the flat value of an extra 3 seconds on Arcane Power is likely greatly increased in conjunction with cooldown stacking. I'm not suggesting it competes with Molten Armour, but I can see why people are contemplating switching
Just to eye some numbers: 3 seconds of 20% increased damage every 1.4 minutes is on average 3s/84s*0.2=0.71%

crit scaling is approximately a factor between 1.81 and 1.95 so lets assume you do 1.9x the amount of a non-crit.
With about 45% crit on average you would need to increase the crit by c, defined by
(1-(0.45+c)+(0.45+c)*1.9)=1.0071*((1-0.45)+0.45*1.9)
Solving for c leads to a whopping c=0.0111 i.e. slightly more than 1% crit. Any more crit you gain through the glyph increases your dps more.

The glyph converts 20% of your spirit into crit rating, of which you need 45.91 für 1%

0.94*45.91=0.2*sp -> sp=254.4 Any spirit above 255 will grant you additional crit, favouring the molten armor glyph.

Of course, if you have more crit, then the amount of spirit you need for break-even increases

with 60% crit you need 279 spirit
with 80% crit you need 316 spirit

I have about twice that amount of spirit in a raid, which would therefore require the gain by the 3 extra seconds of AP to be inflated by a factor of 2 just to be competetive. I highly doubt that you can inflate the gain by two just by cooldown stacking EACH time you use AP.

Last edited by Light4 : 02/18/10 at 8:00 PM. Reason: math corrected - AP CD

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Old 02/18/10, 7:20 PM   #3499
abductkill
Glass Joe
 
Ootz
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
Just to eye some numbers: 3 seconds of 20% increased damage every 1.4 minutes is on average 3s/100s*0.2=0.6%
If I'm not mistaken, the cooldown on Arcane Power is 84 seconds (1.4 * 60) not 1 minute and 40 seconds. This would then increase the value of the AP glyph slightly:
Value of AP Glyph = 3s/84s*0.2~.71% increased damage

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Old 02/18/10, 8:05 PM   #3500
ripcurlksm
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Burning Legion
Looking through every post since 3.3 came out, is there an updated rotation table with dps, mps, etc as seen on post 1?

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Old 02/19/10, 7:31 AM   #3501
mcklaus
Glass Joe
 
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Human Mage
 
Los Errantes (EU)
Originally Posted by Sinless View Post
I wanted to make something clear. A macro like:

/cast [nochanneling:Arcane Missiles] Arcane Blast(Rank 4)

will cause you lost casting time because of server-client lag ONLY when you are channeling AM. Is that correct? As in, if you are spamming AB only, using this macro or not, will not make any difference whatsoever. This point is not totally clear in my head.
It's correct, there is no delay using that macro when you are spamming AB. Furthermore, now I'm using the macro:

/cast [nochanneling] Arcane Missiles

It allows you to start spamming the key binded to this macro while casting the fourth AB without fear to cut the channeling of the spell with a new one. It helps mainly in heavy lag moments of a fight.

Can you detect any disadvatage when using this macro?.

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Old 02/19/10, 9:15 AM   #3502
komma
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Alexstrasza
Originally Posted by mcklaus View Post
It's correct, there is no delay using that macro when you are spamming AB. Furthermore, now I'm using the macro:

/cast [nochanneling] Arcane Missiles

It allows you to start spamming the key binded to this macro while casting the fourth AB without fear to cut the channeling of the spell with a new one. It helps mainly in heavy lag moments of a fight.

Can you detect any disadvatage when using this macro?.
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that if you start the channeling of arcane missiles, you invoke the GCD which puts a 1 second lock on any new spell. This means that you can't cut an AM that has just been initiated anyway, so the macro doesn't seem like it would do anything.

The only situation where I can imagine this macro making a difference is after casting say, evocation or blizzard, you decide to use a stashed away missile barrage proc from earlier arcane blasts. You'd lose some casting time due to latency. Of course, this only happens during high haste situations, since blizzard and evocation usually last too long for a missile barrage proc to be still around anyway.

As for the problem of starting a new AB right after MBAM and not gaining benefit from PtL, I am a bit confused as to why folks are even arguing about it. The effect of PtL is something along the lines of a 0.1 to 0.15 seconds shaved off an arcane blast, during a regular rotation. The time reduction is even less during haste cooldowns. The effect of using a [nochannelling] tag causes you to lose much more than that (0.3 seconds or more, based on my own experiences. May not be the same for others). Of course in an ideal situation we'd wish that we didn't lose any cast time at all, but since we can't fix server/client latencies anyway, why should we go out of our way and lose even more?

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Old 02/19/10, 9:55 AM   #3503
Sinless
Piston Honda
 
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Troll Mage
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by komma View Post
As for the problem of starting a new AB right after MBAM and not gaining benefit from PtL, I am a bit confused as to why folks are even arguing about it. The effect of PtL is something along the lines of a 0.1 to 0.15 seconds shaved off an arcane blast, during a regular rotation. The time reduction is even less during haste cooldowns. The effect of using a [nochannelling] tag causes you to lose much more than that (0.3 seconds or more, based on my own experiences. May not be the same for others). Of course in an ideal situation we'd wish that we didn't lose any cast time at all, but since we can't fix server/client latencies anyway, why should we go out of our way and lose even more?
This is a nice point. The only AB that gains from the effect using a nochanneling macro is the first AB where you gain at most 0.2 secs off. That doesn't look like a big gain considering you are already losing twice your latency using a /nochanneling macro.

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Old 02/19/10, 9:58 AM   #3504
myth123
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Tichondrius
You also lose the last missile by clipping, which is worth quite a lot (half an AB at least, especially with full AB stacks).

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Old 02/19/10, 11:48 AM   #3505
Rugz
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Azuremyst (EU)
He's not talking about clipping, if you start casting AB just as the 5th missile leaves your hand it will not be cast under the effects of PtL.

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Old 02/19/10, 11:54 AM   #3506
Sinless
Piston Honda
 
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Troll Mage
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by myth123 View Post
You also lose the last missile by clipping, which is worth quite a lot (half an AB at least, especially with full AB stacks).
I'm talking about the exact opposite, using a /nochanneling macro to not clip the AM and make sure the first AB after MBAM is hasted through 2pT10.

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Old 02/19/10, 1:13 PM   #3507
ripcurlksm
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Burning Legion
Originally Posted by komma View Post
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that if you start the channeling of arcane missiles, you invoke the GCD which puts a 1 second lock on any new spell.
Correct, same result here

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Old 02/19/10, 1:51 PM   #3508
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
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Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
On the topic of glyph of AP: the new magegraf does account for cooldown stacking including bloodlust, 4-piece, icy veins and AP (but not a trinket, but this is a much smaller component). With all that in mind, over a 5 minute fight magegraf has glyph of AP as 34 dps less than glyph of MA. A lot more favorable than the rawr calcultion, but MA would still be better and more consistent damage.

Edit: Comparison done with best in slot gear.

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

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Old 02/19/10, 5:50 PM   #3509
Sinless
Piston Honda
 
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Troll Mage
 
Frostwolf
PTR 3.3.3

Arcane

* Arcane Empowerment: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc off of critical strikes. The self damage buff remains unchanged.
* Incanter's Absorption: This talent now only grants additional spell power when damage is absorbed by Mana Shield, Frost Ward, Fire Ward, or Ice Barrier. The limit of 5% of the mage's health on the spell power buff has been removed.

I wonder if they will try to balance this change with a buff to another talent?

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Old 02/19/10, 5:53 PM   #3510
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
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Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
I have updated theorycraft results for the new changes, posted here with BiS gear:

Vontre's Magegraf

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

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