The Arcane thread - Page 239

Loddafnir · 03/13/10, 10:37 AM

Maybe that question has already been asked:

But on which point in your rotation are you using your 4t10-bonus? And on which point in the fight?

I try to use it twice (assuming the fight is 5 mins long): Once in the beginning and then when the bloodlust starts. I also try to stack it with IV and Arcane Power (+trinkets).

btw. Another question: When or how do you use evocation with the t210-bonus (is this worth it?)? At the end?

Thank You

Hidden · 03/13/10, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Xentropy

Via SimulationCraft data, mostly T9 gear but T10 mechanics.

Spec	Crit Scaling	DPS-neutral Scaling
Frostfire	1.8613	26.585
Fire	1.6858	22.873
Shadow	1.5419	21.995
Elemental	1.3957	19.033
Balance	1.2512	17.273
Affliction	1.2487	15.851
Arcane	1.1548	14.899
Demon	1.1272	14.856
Destro	1.0391	13.519
Frost	0.7932	12.113

The problem with your data is 'mostly T9 gear', e.g. Moonkins in T10 gear are at the crit cap for Starfire, reducing the value of crit greatly, while most Moonkins weren't near the critcap in T9 gear.

Weimdog · 03/15/10, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by Loddafnir

Maybe that question has already been asked:

But on which point in your rotation are you using your 4t10-bonus? And on which point in the fight?

I try to use it twice (assuming the fight is 5 mins long): Once in the beginning and then when the bloodlust starts. I also try to stack it with IV and Arcane Power (+trinkets).

btw. Another question: When or how do you use evocation with the t210-bonus (is this worth it?)? At the end?

Thank You

I use my images as soon as I get 10 stacks of Cultivated power, unless bloodlust is coming soon. For example, we pop hero after the first bonestorm on Marrowgar, so I only use PoM until that point to ensure that I have all cooldowns prepared. Depending on the fight, there may be a need for large burst damage at certain points. In the Lich King encounter, my guild had our dps ensure all of our cooldowns were available for the end of each transition, because having adds up as you go back to tanking the Lich King led to a lot of wipes -- so in this case, I saved images until the end of the transition.
Concerning my rotation, I cast images as soon as I have a 4stack if I have mana, otherwise I wait until I get a MB proc. Once MB procs, and images are up, and I'm ready to cast (no incoming damage, GCD is ending), then I pop IV+AP.

As far as evocation goes, If you pop Icy Veins and Arcane Power at the same time, and you don't glyph Arcane Power, you may have noticed that AP ends 5 seconds before IV. If you try to time a MB proc so that the last missile fires just as AP is ending, (>1 Second remaining), you will have 5 seconds of IV remaining AND 5 seconds of Pushing the Limit. I generally cast 2 more AB's, then Evoke to use the haste from both buffs. If you're going to evoke in a fight, its always better to use the end of whatever haste buffs you can.

Cyrille104 · 03/15/10, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by Hoosiermama

I always put my FM on our boomkin, as I feel she benefits most from it because of the way Eclipse works and her 4p.

This may not be the best choice. Most balance druids in 264+ gear are soft crit capped, so FM does not benefit us as much as you might think.

♦ Seonid · 03/15/10, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Alayne

If your only choice is the tree, expect to have very low uptime. Also, swiftmend crits didn't proc it, which I found curious.

Druid HoT crits do not proc FM as the crit is initiated by a buff on the heal target, not by the druid themselves. Swiftmend (as I understand) works the same way as the consumed effect is again on the heal target. The other consideration on choosing an FM target is that you want to maximise your buff uptime.

alia · 03/15/10, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Sit

Maybe I should restate my question:

Assuming you are hit capped before talents at what haste rating would you get so much deminishing returns from IV that you would put those 11 extra points in arcane or fire instead of frost?

1) If you're hit capped before talents then you're spending your ilvl points poorly with your gearing decisions. As explained upthread, talents are far "cheaper" when dealing with hit bonuses that rating on gear, so you should utilize them fully.

2) Haste does not suffer from diminishing returns. The amount of haste you would need to achieve sub 1-second arcane blasts outside of cooldowns is unreachable. If, when heroism and your 2pcT10 and black magic and any trinkets you have are rolling, your AB casts are nearing 1 second, don't use IV during this time.

fiverz · 03/16/10, 4:06 AM

Originally Posted by Weimdog

I use my images as soon as I get 10 stacks of Cultivated power, unless bloodlust is coming soon. For example, we pop hero after the first bonestorm on Marrowgar, so I only use PoM until that point to ensure that I have all cooldowns prepared. Depending on the fight, there may be a need for large burst damage at certain points. In the Lich King encounter, my guild had our dps ensure all of our cooldowns were available for the end of each transition, because having adds up as you go back to tanking the Lich King led to a lot of wipes -- so in this case, I saved images until the end of the transition.
Concerning my rotation, I cast images as soon as I have a 4stack if I have mana, otherwise I wait until I get a MB proc. Once MB procs, and images are up, and I'm ready to cast (no incoming damage, GCD is ending), then I pop IV+AP.

I am not sure that there is a definitive answer to the question of should you "use cooldowns whenever you can (i.e. stagger them) and the stack cooldowns when appropriate (e.g. on a 2nd IV)". I asked a similar question back at the beginning of February when I was planning to get 4pT10, which lead to some private messaging that really didn't come to a conclusive answer, however I think your answer is a good one: with the current raid fight mechanics there are times when you need to burst damage, saving your cooldowns for those times should be preferential (e.g. when you are bitten on BQL, your lich king example, Icehowl crash phases, etc.).

Here is the original discussion regards to the cooldowns/trinkets of the time: Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

The two important parts to read:

As arcane, you'll want to hold off until you get that 4th AB stack, then use CDs to hit the hardest out of the gate as you can. If you've got a disgusting amount of haste, you might want to stagger your haste pots, IV, and hero, so you don't start clipping the GCD (at my gear level, with hero and IV, I clip the GCD with damn near everything, which is just a painful waste).

TL;DR: just use them whenever you can, as much as you can. If you're clipping, start staggering.

And Kevinally in the PM conversation came to the conclusion that

Originally Posted by Kevinally

That still stands true with (4)10 bonus. Everyone is making a huge deal out of our set bonuses thinking they should change how we play. They don't.

Which I believe assumes a stand+burn fight with no burst phases needed. Otherwise, assume that the topic of cooldown stacking does not have a straightforward "always right" answer.

Riptor · 03/17/10, 4:32 AM

In my opinion, if (and this is a very big if) you have or want to do as much Dmg as possible at the beginning of a fight you should pop your CDs one GCD before the Tank pulls. If you wait until you have 4AB Stacks you will have wasted (depending on casting speed) half of your prepotted Potion and somewhere between 3 and 6 Seconds of your Black Magic procc.

Granted you should know how fast your MT does his Countdown, but at least in our Raid the first fully buffed AB hits about one Second after the Bossfight has started (basically this determines which Mage will be on Top for the rest of the fight)

Aestis · 03/17/10, 5:29 AM

I've found Deus Vox invaluable for timing pre-pots, since the combat timer is consistently accurate and allows for a minimum of lost buff time.

Typically I'll pop MI right before the pre-pot (or one GCD before the boss is in range, in the case of LK), then cast 2 ABs before popping IV/AP/Zerking in order to allow Black Magic, Frostforged Sage and Lightweave to proc.

Bossakula · 03/19/10, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by alia

1) If you're hit capped before talents then you're spending your ilvl points poorly with your gearing decisions. As explained upthread, talents are far "cheaper" when dealing with hit bonuses that rating on gear, so you should utilize them fully.

This is actually exactly backwards, although the final conclusion is certainly correct. That conclusion, "Arcane Mages should spend their talent points on +hit talents, saving their gear itemization points for haste or crit", is spot on.

However, hit% on gear is far cheaper than hit% from talents. Think of it this way, most "DPS talents" provide a 1% increase in DPS per talent point. The +hit talents in the mage tree are, by this reckoning, relatively average DPS talents. They are certainly not cheap, compared to, e.g., Netherwind Presence.

At the same time, hit rating on gear is very cheap, since the conversion from hit rating to hit% is so favorable.

The reason Alia correct is that there aren't any true "DPS talents" to use in lieu of the +hit talents. Given that there are no reasonable alternatives that provide 1% DPS per talent point (or even close to that), the best talent choice is to take all the +hit talents (precision and arcane focus). That choice should be mated to gearing that puts your hit percentage close to the cap as possible after talents.

Mystère · 03/19/10, 8:34 PM

Originally Posted by Riptor

In my opinion, if (and this is a very big if) you have or want to do as much Dmg as possible at the beginning of a fight you should pop your CDs one GCD before the Tank pulls. If you wait until you have 4AB Stacks you will have wasted (depending on casting speed) half of your prepotted Potion and somewhere between 3 and 6 Seconds of your Black Magic procc.

What about after this point? Would you pop CD's as soon as they come back up, or would you wait until, say AP and IV came up to pop them together? Apologies if this question has already been answered.

For eg.
0:00- use AP+IV+MI
1:23- use AP
2:23- (IV comes back up but I dont use)
2:46- (AP come back up) use AP+IV again
etc.

And for T10 w/ MI bonus:
0:00- use AP+IV+MI
1:23- use AP
2:23- (IV comes back up but I dont use)
2:46- (AP come back up, but I dont use)
3:00- (MI come back up) use AP+IV+MI
then repeat

So really, my question is should you stack CD's or use them as soon as they are available AFTER you have popped them at the start. Or is it just fight dependent?

Rugz · 03/20/10, 1:09 AM

Popping cooldowns depends on how long the fight is. Stack them all near the start for maximum gain (without going sub 1 second), after that it depends on how long the boss has left to live.

For instance, if you can blow Arcane Power as soon as it comes off cooldown and have it ready again a 3rd time during the fight then use it when it comes up. If you're only going to have time to pop it once more, wait until Icy Veins comes up aswell and stack them.

Siduri · 03/21/10, 4:58 AM

Question about spec in arcane (asking here because i can't find it anywhere):

Is Arcane Stability viable for hardmodes in 25? I've seen several top end mages that go 3/5 stability and 0 in magic absorption, then i've seen other top end mages that go 2/2 magic absorption, 0 stability, and 3/3 incanter's absorption. Which is better and why?

Pook · 03/21/10, 11:13 AM

It was rather reassuring to see Ghostcrawler coming to our Defence.....Here

"Players like to wave this banner, but it's just not true. If all you do is look at their damage logs, yes, a lot of damage comes from Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles. Does that mean any Arcane mage can faceroll his way to 12,000 dps? Hardly. The good mages have a lot of things to manage in the way of mana and cooldowns.

"Requires skill" does not mean 20 sources of damage. It can also mean you have to juggle a lot to maximize the damage from 2 sources. That is the design of the mage in a nuthsell: a dominant nuke with a lot of infrastructure to prop up that nuke.

Off topic, I know, but this is a myth that needs to stop getting perpetuated.

"

I've been getting increasingly annoyed at people not even understanding why they are wrong when they "lol" at arcane....

Tyrian · 03/21/10, 12:26 PM

I've seen several top end mages that go 3/5 stability and 0 in magic absorption, then i've seen other top end mages that go 2/2 magic absorption, 0 stability, and 3/3 incanter's absorption. Which is better and why?

Magic Absorption is a very good 2 point talent. Whether people pick it up or not, doesn't diminish this statement.

Many mages considered MA a staple of Arcane specs all through Ulduar hardmodes. The 80 resist from the talent essentially gives a ~10-15% reduction in magic damage taken. The mana restore component of the talent is just a bonus. However currently the decision to skip it has more to do with IA:

- IA is currently very good
- IA is a 3 point talent. Since the Arcane tree is already bloated, dropping 2 points from MA can be the easiest way to find the points for IA.
- IA and MA also share a small amount of mutual exclusivity. You want to take a certain amount of magic damage to maximise your IA. Resisting part of that might be good from a survival/healing perspective, but can also lower your IA. Some people feel that this situation reflects an inherant flaw of the IA talent: it rewards people for taking damage.

Magic Absorption was essentially squeezed out of it's points by Incanter's Absorption, a symptom of the bloated talent tree. Next patch, when IA is nerfed and those 2-3 points are freed up, Absorption will once again be an easy talent to pickup. The list of hardmodes which have large amounts of applicable damage which Magic Absorption can modify is quite impressive: Sindragosa, Festergut, Blood-Queen Lana'thel, Deathwhisper (FB volley, not Shades). Several aspects of Lich King (including Infest) also are of special note.

To understand/appreciate the value of MA, this thread is a must-read: Resistance Mechanics in WotLK