The Arcane thread - Page 37

Guintof · 01/27/09, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bencjy

I just tried out the rotation [Arcane Barrage]x3 -> [Arcane missiles] -> [Arcane Barrage] trying to clip the 4th missile with Arcane Barrage but it appears that when i cast Arcane Missiles, the Arcane Blast buff is consumed by the 1st missile which activates the 60% damage increase for the missiles but Arcane barrage does not benefit from the 60% damage increase anymore.

If this is the case, what would the next best rotation be besides spamming Arcane Blast?

Can I suggest you read the last 5 or so pages of this thread? In fact your question is answered just a few post above yours and doing some reading before posting is always a good thing.

dralarn · 01/27/09, 10:16 PM

Forgive the basic probability question, as I'm not sure the best place to post this... Can someone please tell me the formula for determining the probability that MB will proc after N casts?

Tifordin · 01/27/09, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kavan

Assumptions are roughly my gear, molten armor and using the procedure outlined in the dynamic cycles thread to find the optimal cycle pair at 300 mps barrier. Another assumption in the modeling is that this is in unhasted situation. So the optimal cycle pair for hasted situation will very likely be different.

Now that it's confirmed glyph will be hotfixed again I'll run the numbers again with the fix and I'll do them at several mps barriers to get a larger range of cycles.

What would be truly overwhelmingly awesome, would be to have a breakdown of optimal rotations based on MPS cutoffs.

daxfex · 01/27/09, 10:20 PM

firt thx for doin this thread ben nice to read.
rotation i used is 3xAB 1xAm 1xABrr and same over again still doin about 500 -1 k more dps then next on list (depending on the fight) thou seems hard on the mana, i use it regardless of MB proc or not since duration of the MB buff duration dont go away before i get to AM in my rotation. I can keep my mana if use my evac everytime its of CD thou some dps downtime when evac i still do great deal more damage then rest of raid.

Kavan · 01/27/09, 10:25 PM

Ok I have done a comprehensive analysis of best cycle pairs under unhasted condition for a reasonable range of mana regen (this is with glyph working on AM, slightly different gear setup so not comparable with previous results). It appears that when you change the mps barrier what was previously the low dps sustainable cycle takes the role of high dps unsustainable cycle. It is not clear to me that this always has to be the case, I did not attempt to prove it, but it holds in this case so I'll list the full range of optimal cycles.

First I checked the highest dps cycle. This is now AB30MBAMABar (spam AB, do MBAM-ABar at 3 stack or 0 stack only) with 5000.77539 dps, 412.843842 mps.

Next I started to cover the mana regen range. I started at 300 mps barrier. The high dps unsustainable cycle in this case is AB3MBAMABar (spam AB, do MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only) with 4986.48535 dps, 396.168274 mps. The low dps sustainable cycle is AB3ABarC (ABx3-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only) with 4775.48438 dps, 237.8472 mps.

Lowering the mps barrier AB3ABarC becomes unsustainable and the new sustainable cycle becomes AB2ABar3MBAMABar (ABx2-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only) with 4682.732 dps, 202.516235 mps.

Further lowering the mps barrier AB2ABarC (ABx2-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 2 stack only) becomes the new sustainable cycle with 4584.458 dps, 168.772339 mps.

Going even further we get AB2ABar/MBAM (ABx2-ABar, replacing ABar in the cycle with MBAM if we see proc up) with 4525.909 dps, 155.8093 mps. Next is ABABarMBAM (AB-ABar, if you get a proc insert it after ABar and start again with AB) with 4446.221 dps, 140.724182 mps. Next is ABABar (plain AB-ABar, not using procs at all) with 4103.66748 dps, 101.676247 mps. If even that is not sustainable we have ABAM (plain AB-AM, procs get used automatically as they happen) with 3722.44922 dps, 74.8641052 mps.

Of interest is that the previous classic AB-ABar with replacing AB with MBAM is not optimal at any regen level. If you've read through this then you will notice that we have some real need for descriptive names for the cycles. I've tried my best to devise names that are somewhat suggestive, but they're far from perfect. If anyone has any idea for a naming nomenclature I'd like to hear your input. Keep in mind that we're dealing with 102 unique arcane cycles, but at least for the cycles that I listed here we might be able to come up with something that is easy to use.

semanteme · 01/27/09, 11:25 PM

Thank you for finding the optimal cycles so soon after the hotfix

May I suggest having some punctuation in the names? It's probably only me but some of these rotations are rather difficult to understand just by looking at the names, if the whole rotation gets meshed together into a long chain like AB30MBAMABar >_>

Some thoughts:
. represents a separator for casts in the rotation
/ means an alternative to that cast
() encloses the actions to take place when a MB proc happens
>> means replacing what comes before it with what comes after

Giving these for the rotations Kavan stated:
AB3(/0.MBAM.ABar)
AB3.(MBAM.ABar)
AB3.(MBAM).ABar
AB2.(3.MBAM).ABar
AB2.(MBAM).ABar
AB2.ABar(>>MBAM)
AB.ABar.(MBAM)
AB.ABar
AB.AM

Taking the first one as an example, AB3(/0.MBAM.ABar) should be read as AB3 normally, and when MB procs, AB3/0.MBAM.ABar

Althought now that I've written it down it looks unnecessarily complicated. <_<

EDIT:misunderstood a cycle in Kavan's post

Astrylian · 01/27/09, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Lgs

I can set to spec-only glyphs or just check off every glyph. All relevant mp5 buffs are on, fight lengths are short.

FFB: 3275
FB: 2998
Arc (57/3/11): 2659-2800 (mage vs molten armor)

Obviously not correct. Last night in a 10 man 3d (and I did no ae) I had 5k w/ arcane. I am only trusting rawr in regards to individual upgrades at this point.

Pretty sure you're doing something major wrong if you're seeing DPS numbers that low for any of those specs, with any semblance of decent gear (based on attempting S10+3, guessing you've got decent gear). Post your character file, and we can take a look, if you can't figure it out.

Guintof · 01/28/09, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Kavan

First I checked the highest dps cycle. This is now AB30MBAMABar (spam AB, do MBAM-ABar at 3 stack or 0 stack only) with 5000.77539 dps, 412.843842 mps.

Interesting, I didn't think that any level of mana regen reachable by a mage would support simply standing and spamming AB until MBAM procced.

Are all those rotations assumed to be sustainable under a 2-minutes period (Where a mage would at that point evocate and start all over) or over the course of the entire fight?

Also what I don't understand is, if MBAM consumes the AB buff why include Abar at all in the rotation and not just go back to spamming AB after throwing MBAM?

Lgs · 01/28/09, 12:05 AM

Astrylian, I was looking at the talent spec in the chart and not on the spell stats page. My bad

And assuming everything is matched up, arc is now a few hundred dps ahead, although my gear is nearly maxed out.

Sackobones · 01/28/09, 12:43 AM

This was a patchwork fight tonight.

Patchwerk : Sackobones

I topped that fight, and our Kelthuzad fight. I will say without any serious bleeds or dots the rogue/warrior/Ret pally facerolled huge numbers on Thaddius.

I did pretty well overall in the night. I faced a few times that I messed up my mana management but overall I was happy with the spec.

I tipped the charts on like 4-5 fights overall.

Kavan · 01/28/09, 12:44 AM

These cycles are in absence of any fight length. Which ones you choose is based on fight length and mana regen which determines your effective sustainable mps level. You will always use a mix of a sustainable and an unstastainable cycle. I can't explain why ABar is used other than that it's more optimal. You have to remember that ABar has two functions, damage and generator of missile barrage procs.

Sackobones · 01/28/09, 12:45 AM

It is also used to consume the AB charge so you don't go oom. The DPM of a AB spam cycle is too heavy and inefficient for any fight over 45 seconds long.

Kenshinhimora · 01/28/09, 12:55 AM

do yo guys pop IV at the start of the fight or wait till ur ~3/4 mana then pop it? i've been using it at the start with

IV+ AB AB pom + ap + trinket AB into rotation

but that causes mana problems in some fights.

suggestions?

ArchJared · 01/28/09, 2:05 AM

I don't think that only first 4 spells casts are the cause of your Mana Issues

I would suggest buying Mana Pots (since you can use only 1 per boss fight) until you feel completely safe without them.

Generally, As Arcane you want to burn all of your CDs until you're OOM -> Evocation -> Gem to max mana, and then depending on the length of the fight either continue your highest DPS rotation or start with the DPM rotation.

Although, I hope that you're not saying "Mana Issues" cause there is no Judgment of the wisdom/Replenishment in your raid :P

Dustwhisper · 01/28/09, 2:35 AM

You don't want to use gem after evocation, you want to stack it with all your other cooldowns to get the most out of the spelldamage boost.