The Arcane thread - Page 39

Raencloud · 01/28/09, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Segoinkins

In our guild we have started to use a disc priest to shield the mages every 15 seconds on fights with raid damage in conjunction with incanter's absorbtion. The bonus spell damage on these fights is significant as on a fight like faerlina I was sitting with a bonus of about 800 spell damage the whole fight due to the ticking of the poison. Since power word shield prevents pushback and in our case can absorbs about 8k damage every 15 second this frees up the points in pushback reduction and allows you to put them into Absorbtion and whatever else you want to. This brings a bonus to the same fight push back protection does, but it is a bigger bonus if you can get a priest to help by using a couple of GCDs every 15 seconds.

Lucky you. My guild only HAS 2 priests in it at all. One raids as shadow, and they other as holy. We also run with up to 4 druids at a time (1 resto, 1 feral (MT), 1 boomkin, and 1 that plays boomkin/resto depending on the needs at the time). The only one of them that will innervate me is our MT, often times WHILE he's tanking bosses. Most of the time I don't even think the boomkins use their innervate during the fight; it makes me a sad panda.

BTW, how are u absorbing 8k dmg with a PW:S. Last I checked this thing only absorbs maybe 4k?

bombdigie · 01/28/09, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Raencloud

Lucky you. My guild only HAS 2 priests in it at all. One raids as shadow, and they other as holy. We also run with up to 4 druids at a time (1 resto, 1 feral (MT), 1 boomkin, and 1 that plays boomkin/resto depending on the needs at the time). The only one of them that will innervate me is our MT, often times WHILE he's tanking bosses. Most of the time I don't even think the boomkins use their innervate during the fight; it makes me a sad panda.

BTW, how are u absorbing 8k dmg with a PW:S. Last I checked this thing only absorbs maybe 4k?

800 / .15 = ~5333

Segoinkins · 01/28/09, 12:04 PM

The bottom of the disc tree gives them a talent that gives it a bonus 40% spell co-ef.

a e s t h e t i c · 01/28/09, 12:21 PM

Our usual mage who does the scorching wasn't around tonight, so I decided to spec 18/53/0 since I had not tried it in a raid environment. I was surprised at how good the DPS was and I had no mana issues at all. Our normal WWS logger wasn't there tonight so sadly, I do not have the WWS. On patchwork, I topped the meters at 5.2k (no flask and probably missing some buffs) with the other arcane mage coming in a very close 2nd. Because of no WWS I can't really see what all he was doing as far as rotations (we did patch at about 9pm EST) and I'm not sure if AM was fixed at that point. Personally I feel that fire is a great option and alternative for people who don't like arcane, or are worrying about the mana issues at hand.

When our regular scorching mage did show up before 3drake Sarth I respec'd back to arcane. I'm happy to say I was able to cast Arcane blast, AM(when MB procd) and Arcane Barrage when movement was involved and sustained my mana very good. Only once I was OOM and wanded for a few seconds until my Evocation was back up, also I did use one mana pot. All of this was with having Molten Armor up most of the fight, I had swapped to Mage Armor while doing AEing to regen a bit, then switched back to Molten when evoc/gem/torrent was up again.

Just figured I would report this and share yesterdays experience.

EDIT I looked a little bit and didn't find anything, so forgive me if this has been answered somewhere else. Right now I'm using gothik's cowl, Valorous chest/legs. I got [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] last night and am wondering if I break the 4 set bonus now or wait until I can pick up [Valorous Frostfire Circlet] to keep the 4 set. Also if [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] // [Leggings of Mortal Arrogance] are available to me should I use them and just focus on keeping my 2set for arcane? I'm more so wondering how good the 4set is for Arcane. I don't have access to Rawr or anything ATM and would also like to get a little insight from others on this.

Kyriani · 01/28/09, 12:45 PM

Forgive me if this question isn't relevant as it's more out of curiosity... but... is there any benefit to using 2pc T3 with arcane for a 60 second evo cooldown? Would the ability to burn and refill every 60 seconds be worth the stat losses? I know T3 isn't accessible anymore but at least a few mages (myself included) still have our old T3 saved. Just curious if there'd be any type of gain to using it and if that gain is worth the loss of the gear stats. The ring and the bracers seem like good contenders for the 2pc if it is at all viable to use.

solbergb · 01/28/09, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Raencloud

Lucky you. My guild only HAS 2 priests in it at all.

Mine has more but the disc priest is pretty strictly focused on the main tank. I'd be shocked if I got a bubble from her. In 5 mans I get bubbles from pallies or priests sometimes but in 25 man, ranged DPS is expected to keep itself alive enough for the aoe healing to take care of things.

concentration aura, by contrast, is pretty common as we are heavy on pallies and there aren't that many useful auras most of the time.

Lgs · 01/28/09, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kyriani

Forgive me if this question isn't relevant as it's more out of curiosity... but... is there any benefit to using 2pc T3 with arcane for a 60 second evo cooldown? Would the ability to burn and refill every 60 seconds be worth the stat losses? I know T3 isn't accessible anymore but at least a few mages (myself included) still have our old T3 saved. Just curious if there'd be any type of gain to using it and if that gain is worth the loss of the gear stats. The ring and the bracers seem like good contenders for the 2pc if it is at all viable to use.

I never have any mana problems with replen. Going back to T3 will be a ridiculous loss of DPS, as would Evocating every 60 seconds. 2-piece T6 for the extra 2 seconds is just as ridiculous... before someone proposes that one.

♦ nathanbp · 01/28/09, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kavan

Of interest is that the previous classic AB-ABar with replacing AB with MBAM is not optimal at any regen level. If you've read through this then you will notice that we have some real need for descriptive names for the cycles. I've tried my best to devise names that are somewhat suggestive, but they're far from perfect. If anyone has any idea for a naming nomenclature I'd like to hear your input. Keep in mind that we're dealing with 102 unique arcane cycles, but at least for the cycles that I listed here we might be able to come up with something that is easy to use.

How about using (X/Y) to enclose the options (on if MB proced or not) and using C for MBAMABar. So the cycles from Kavan's post would be something like:

Cycle	Kavan's Description	dps	mps
ABSpam/0(C)	(spam AB, do MBAM-ABar at 3 stack or 0 stack only)	5000.8	412.8
ABSpam(C)	(spam AB, do MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only)	4986.5	396.2
AB3(ABar/C)	(ABx3-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only)	4775.5	237.8
AB2(ABar/ABC)	(ABx2-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only)	4682.7	202.5
AB2(ABar/C)	(ABx2-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 2 stack only)	4584.5	168.8
AB2(ABar/MBAM)	(ABx2-ABar, replacing ABar in the cycle with MBAM if we see proc up)	4525.9	155.8
ABABar(/MBAM)	(AB-ABar, if you get a proc insert it after ABar and start again with AB)	4446.2	140.7
ABABar	(plain AB-ABar, not using procs at all)	4103.7	101.7
ABAM	(plain AB-AM, procs get used automatically as they happen)	3722.4	74.9

Of interest to me from looking at that list is that AB(ABar/MBAM) isn't on it but ABABar(/MBAM) is. Something to do with reaction time to procs maybe?

PubaNWO · 01/28/09, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by Segoinkins

In our guild we have started to use a disc priest to shield the mages every 15 seconds on fights with raid damage in conjunction with incanter's absorbtion. The bonus spell damage on these fights is significant as on a fight like faerlina I was sitting with a bonus of about 800 spell damage the whole fight due to the ticking of the poison. Since power word shield prevents pushback and in our case can absorbs about 8k damage every 15 second this frees up the points in pushback reduction and allows you to put them into Absorbtion and whatever else you want to. This brings a bonus to the same fight push back protection does, but it is a bigger bonus if you can get a priest to help by using a couple of GCDs every 15 seconds.

This is what I've been talking about.

+800 sp is crazy...that's more than 6 flasks combined!

If you do have a dedicated shielder and IA it would be greatly beneficial during boss fights such as other mages would not be inclined to use their talent points for IA.

Montegomery · 01/28/09, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by nathanbp

Of interest to me from looking at that list is that AB(ABar/MBAM) isn't on it but ABABar(/MBAM) is. Something to do with reaction time to procs maybe?

Exactly. MBAM procs on spell cast, meaning that the instant your AB is cast you (may) get the proc. The problem is that you should already be casting your next spell at that same instant. Unless you have precognition there's no way you're going to be able to make immediate use of the proc.

ABar, on the other hand, is instant and affords a GCD delay in which you can react.

Peacemaker7 · 01/28/09, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kavan

Ok I have done a comprehensive analysis of best cycle pairs under unhasted condition for a reasonable range of mana regen (this is with glyph working on AM, slightly different gear setup so not comparable with previous results). It appears that when you change the mps barrier what was previously the low dps sustainable cycle takes the role of high dps unsustainable cycle. It is not clear to me that this always has to be the case, I did not attempt to prove it, but it holds in this case so I'll list the full range of optimal cycles.

First I checked the highest dps cycle. This is now AB30MBAMABar (spam AB, do MBAM-ABar at 3 stack or 0 stack only) with 5000.77539 dps, 412.843842 mps.

Next I started to cover the mana regen range. I started at 300 mps barrier. The high dps unsustainable cycle in this case is AB3MBAMABar (spam AB, do MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only) with 4986.48535 dps, 396.168274 mps. The low dps sustainable cycle is AB3ABarC (ABx3-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only) with 4775.48438 dps, 237.8472 mps.

Lowering the mps barrier AB3ABarC becomes unsustainable and the new sustainable cycle becomes AB2ABar3MBAMABar (ABx2-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 3 stack only) with 4682.732 dps, 202.516235 mps.

Further lowering the mps barrier AB2ABarC (ABx2-ABar, use MBAM-ABar at 2 stack only) becomes the new sustainable cycle with 4584.458 dps, 168.772339 mps.

Going even further we get AB2ABar/MBAM (ABx2-ABar, replacing ABar in the cycle with MBAM if we see proc up) with 4525.909 dps, 155.8093 mps. Next is ABABarMBAM (AB-ABar, if you get a proc insert it after ABar and start again with AB) with 4446.221 dps, 140.724182 mps. Next is ABABar (plain AB-ABar, not using procs at all) with 4103.66748 dps, 101.676247 mps. If even that is not sustainable we have ABAM (plain AB-AM, procs get used automatically as they happen) with 3722.44922 dps, 74.8641052 mps.

Of interest is that the previous classic AB-ABar with replacing AB with MBAM is not optimal at any regen level. If you've read through this then you will notice that we have some real need for descriptive names for the cycles. I've tried my best to devise names that are somewhat suggestive, but they're far from perfect. If anyone has any idea for a naming nomenclature I'd like to hear your input. Keep in mind that we're dealing with 102 unique arcane cycles, but at least for the cycles that I listed here we might be able to come up with something that is easy to use.

Props to Kavan for the excellent analysis. I am proposing a simplified nomenclature for all Arcane rotations:

! = Spam
(sequence) = cast sequence immediately when MB procs
(x:sequence) = cast sequence when MB procs and you have AB stacked x times
(xy:sequence) = cast sequence when MB procs and you have AB stacked x or y times

Basically, this is similiar to the macro syntax where the numbers x and y before the : (colon) are preconditions for casting the sequence in parenthesis. Here is the summary of Kavan's excellent analysis using this notation:

AB!(03:MBAM-ABar)_______5000dps 412mps
AB!(3:MBAM-ABar)________4986dps 396mps
ABx3-ABar(3:MBAM-ABar)__4775dps 237mps
ABx2-ABar(3:MBAM-ABar)__4683dps 203mps
ABx2-ABar(2:MBAM-ABar)__4584dps 168mps
ABx2-ABar(2:MBAM)_______4526dps 156mps
ABx1-ABar(0:MBAM)_______4446dps 141mps
ABx1-ABar_______________4104dps 102mps

Keat · 01/28/09, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Zui

EDIT I looked a little bit and didn't find anything, so forgive me if this has been answered somewhere else. Right now I'm using gothik's cowl, Valorous chest/legs. I got [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] last night and am wondering if I break the 4 set bonus now or wait until I can pick up [Valorous Frostfire Circlet] to keep the 4 set. Also if [Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] // [Leggings of Mortal Arrogance] are available to me should I use them and just focus on keeping my 2set for arcane? I'm more so wondering how good the 4set is for Arcane. I don't have access to Rawr or anything ATM and would also like to get a little insight from others on this.

I'd keep your 4 set, wait for your pants and using Gothiks + 4pc

Just an idea, i haven't been arcane for long - but it seems best for most specs SPD wise.

Lgs · 01/28/09, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Peacemaker7

Basically, this is similiar to the macro syntax where the numbers x and y before the : (colon) are preconditions for casting the sequence in parenthesis. Here is the summary of Kavan's excellent analysis using this notation:

AB!(03:MBAM-ABar)_______5000dps 412mps
AB!(3:MBAM-ABar)________4986dps 396mps
ABx3-ABar(3:MBAM-ABar)__4775dps 237mps
ABx2-ABar(3:MBAM-ABar)__4683dps 203mps
ABx2-ABar(2:MBAM-ABar)__4584dps 168mps
ABx2-ABar(2:MBAM)_______4526dps 156mps
ABx1-ABar(0:MBAM)_______4446dps 141mps
ABx1-ABar_______________4104dps 102mps

Don't forget situations where MBAM is up w/ no stack. That's always the first priority.

Peacemaker7 · 01/28/09, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lgs

Don't forget situations where MBAM is up w/ no stack. That's always the first priority.

Actually it's only the first priority as indicated if you see (0:MBAM...) or (03:MBAM...). See Kavan's earlier excellent analysis.

Rotcaster · 01/28/09, 2:15 PM

Hey all. I've read through the whole thread, and I think I'm missing something basic. If MB procs during the ABx3 cycle, and you cast MBAM after the 3 stack, why should you then cast ABar instead of just starting the AB stack again? I understood the clipping thing, but now that it doesn't work I'm not getting why to still do it. Sorry if I missed it, and thanks for the help!