Extrudedcow

Procodile can track internal cooldowns, and does a reasonably good job at it.

I suspect the value of the Egg may be slightly inflated. Since the proc triggers in the middle of AM (and doesn't benefit from the added haste), even with large amounts of haste you're going to lose at least 20% of the proc benefit on average from a regular AM cast, and and 10% with a AM barrage. Following the Ivor's math from the linked post, this puts the egg ahead of the sundial only if you use AM during a barrage proc, and only if you're casting AM once the cooldown is up. Combined with slightly increased value of crit from the new AM glyph, I suspect that in actual usage the sundial pulls ahead of egg by a small margin.

 

Physicist

In the ABx3 [MBAM or Abarr] rotation, there is at least some loss of dps here coming from that fact we can't react to an MBAM proc after casting the third AB. If we could react to this instantly, dps would be higher.

The arcane rotations now appear to be studied and documented. But we have more spells in our toolbox, and arcane talents affect many of them, even if they are not arcane spells. So on that note...

Is there any virtue in casting a non-arcane school after the third arcane blast, and then deciding to cast MBAM? This means your cycle is longer, but you can notice MBAM procs on the third AB.

Another interesting thought - frost, fire and frostfire bolt can also cause MBAM procs. Is there any virtue in charging up AB to three stacks, and then fishing for a proc with any of these spells?

 

Arcyla

Finally some who also thinks the way I do! :P

I had this idea and it had* potential, but atm I do no think it's worth it.

*I fronted this idea in some PM's when the MBAM-ABar combo was possible. Then you could cast: ABx3, FBx2-3 (until MB proc) and then do the MBAM + ABar combo.

However when I calculated this you could cast up to 4 (or was it 3? anyway, you'll only make 3 if you don't cast 2 AB's first then refresh it) FB's before the rotation would be weaker than the standard.

However they removed the combo and the ABar is weaker now, so I haven't tried to calculate it. I doubt it's worth it now tho.

 

asys

I've been browsing back and through over the past days to find more info about TtW and it's detectable effects on raid dps, but I fail to find anything definite.

I asked all of our "slow" capable classes to apply try to their apply their slowing debuffs on every single boss in Naxxramas and also in EOE, but have yet to see any evidence from the WWS parsed logs nor from Mage Fever that we even get one single indication of the buff being active.

Is there any known way to actually see uptime for this or measure its usefulness ? Our warriors claims that bosses like Malygos are not vulnerable to their debuffs so a bit more info could be appreciated.

Mage Fever shows the following buffs which will trigger TtW:

--Debuffs put on a target which will trigger Torment of the Weak
local MFslow = GetSpellInfo(31589)
local MFthunderclap= GetSpellInfo(47502)
local MFJoJ = GetSpellInfo(53696)
local MFFF = GetSpellInfo(55095)
local MFIW = GetSpellInfo(48485)

If these buffs dont really trigger, or are currently bugged in detection, do we need to apply slow from an arcane mage? Wouldnt this take down our overall dps?

 

epoh

I can't imagine a 3second fireball is a better choice than ABarr. Even with the coefficient change. In the time you are spending casting 3 fireballs (9 seconds) you could have tossed off an ABarr and gotten your AB stack back again. Ideally though, you want to get your regen up to where you can just AB spam until MB procs. In 25mans I usually do ABx5 or so before I'll dump the stack on ABarr.

 

• Astrylian

...what? I don't know what Mage Fever is (some addon?), but it doesn't matter; Torment of the Weak never shows up as a buff. Against any mob that's being tanked, TtW should have near 100% uptime. Every Warrior should keep Thunderclap up 100% of the time on every mob they're tanking. Every Paladin should keep a Judgement up 100% of the time on single mobs they're tanking. Every Death Knight should keep Frost Fever up 100% of the time on every mob they're tanking. Every Bear should keep Infected Wounds up 100% of the time on two mobs they're tanking.

Mobs that aren't being tanked, such as Scions in EoE, may still get one of those debuffs (IW, JoJ, and FF for sure, thunderclap not likely put possible) from being DPSed by any tank.

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◊ Kyth

Should, but many, many don't. Especially since it's easier content now.

I hear pretty often from people whose tanks do not keep up any of the debuffs, so my advice is always not to assume.

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Kelfar

I find myself having to remind my warrior MT to keep TC up sometimes, but more often than not we have a DK in the raid and if they don't have frost fever up they are doing something very wrong. I think it would be safe to assume if you have a DK in the raid then you will have the TtW "Buff"

 

Megaera

With diseaseless rotations putting out comparable numbers, that isn't strictly the case. This is likely to change in 3.1, but for now it's plausible that you raid with a Blood specced DPS DK who isn't applying frost fever, and isn't doing anything wrong.

The overall point stands, though, that with the large number of effects that trigger TotW it's unlikely that you would ever not be benefiting from the talent.

 

• Astrylian

Warriors are about the only ones who could hold threat and not be using their slow. It's easy enough to check Thunderclap uptime, in that case, and yell at them if they aren't.

Rawr - A theorycrafting tool for Bears, Cats, Moonkin, Trees, Healadins, DPSWarrs, Retadins, Mages, ProtWarrs, Tankadins, HealingPriests, ShadowPriests, Warlocks, Rogues, EnhShams, Hunters, Elementals, RestoShams, Tank DKs, and DPS DKs!
Download Rawr v2.2.27 <--NEW Nov9th!

Are you an active Rogue / Hunter / Warlock theorycrafter and an experienced C# dev, with some spare time and a desire to help build something great for the WoW community? Send me a PM!

 

Elnombre

Hmm not currently. A lot of Dk's are taking the diseaseless aproach now espescially with the heigan sigil, but it is true any mob that is being tanked should have some form of attack speed snare up at all times. Any tank whos worth their salt shouldnt even have to think about using it and just do it automatically and if your tank is slacking you still have i guess mind flay debuff, and frostfire (if you have any of those classes in the raid).

 

Physicist

What about a 2.5 second frostbolt?

I mean, undeniably the highest dps rotation is just spam AB and use MBAM when it procs.

But not many people can do that for 5 minutes straight. So the question is: are there rotations that do higher dps than, say, ABx3-AM regardless of procs, as well as better dpm?

 

Kelfar

Movement speed slows do not work on bosses, this is probably the 5th time its been stated in this thread. The only abilities that work on bosses that activate TtW are Slow(mage), Frost Fever(DK), ThunderClap(warrior), Infected Wounds(Druid) and Judgements of the Just(paladin).

 

epoh

Yes, ABarr is still going to be better than a frostbolt.

If you don't have the mana for ABx3MBAM/ABarr then you switch to ABx2. Don't forget you've got a 2min evo and 3 mana gems, which you can re-conjure mid-fight if necessary. Plus a mana pot. Or, ask for better raid support.

 

Dahkeus

I would be very surprised if using a non-arcane spell in a rotation would be better than just sticking to ABar as a debuff stopper. By using a non-arcane spell, you attempt to surpass the potential dps loss of missing a MB proc on an AB right before ABar. However, by doing this, you introduce a new possible dps loss. If you follow up your last AB with something, let's say frostbolt, then if your final AB doesn't proc MB, you have essentially cut your dps by stopping your AB/MBAM rotation to put in not only a frostbolt, but also an ABar after the frostbolt since you will still need to cut off the debuff in order to return to the AB spam in a manner that conserves mana.

 

Darian_TruBlade

It's not quite that cut and dry. For instance, Chains of Ice(DK) doesn't actually do anything against bosses but can still be applied. It even allows the Blood Strike glyph to function.

Source.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Physicist

The rotation ABx3-AM is the recommended rotation if you have to drop to stacking 2xAB during the fight.

Frostbolt also procs MBAM. Edit: But rawr tells me it's lower dps than AB(0) so bad idea.

 

Darian_TruBlade

Frostbolt procs MBAM but suffers the same issue as AB, there's no time to react to the proc. If the last AB didn't proc MBAM, you're going to choose between switching back to AB, casting another Frostbolt, or casting Abar and starting over.

It's essentially a variant on AB3+ [mbarr], where instead of spamming AB past three stacks you spam Frostbolt (either refreshing the AB debuff after every third Frostbolt or starting over by throwing down an Abar). As interesting as such a rotation might be to stack up against the current list Manly has compiled, it seems rather unlikely that spamming Frostbolt for any significant period of time is worthwhile.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Soul

Well, there are a couple others, at least. I know Ice Armor activates TtW, which is essential to old school boss soloing. Also, Doomguard's Cripple also activates TtW, but it overwrites other attack speed slows (because it's much more powerful). I'm not sure if Chains of Ice works, since the debuff is applied, but doesn't have any effect on the boss.

 

n0m0j0

Has there been anymore number crunching on using MBarr more like a hot streak proc?

It seems that using MBarr immediately after the next AB, regardless of stacks, would be better for mana and prevents 'lost' use from when it double procs on the ramp up to 3 ABs.

Altho there is more AB(0) in the rotation, since you would restart the cycle more often after MBarr procs, there is also less Abarr use.. it appears like it might break even, considering the nerf to Abarr and the buff to AM Glyph.

It may be difficult to calculate the appropriate DPS of the Mbarr with an erratic number of AB stacks. I've no idea where to start there unless it is possible to combine probability for the proc with PoM usage to determine an average AB stacking...

 

◊ nathanbp

Yes. Kavan's results for the optimal cycles at different levels of mana usage (listed in the first post) are based on calculating the dps and mps of over 100 possible arcane cycles. The only one which uses Missile Barrage procs at different levels of Arcane Blast debuff stacks is the 4th best dps cycle of AB AB ([mbarr] or AB AM), where you use your proc at 2 stacks if you notice it (if it proced from the first Arcane Blast). At this point all other optimal cycles involve always using your Missile Barrage proc at the same level of Arcane Blast debuff stacks.

For more details on math, see the Mathematics of dynamic cycles thread.

 

Omnia

If you are worried about slowing effect uptime on the boss, I really suggest using a mod to detect it, so you can yell at your tank if necessary. I personally use Power Auras Classic, with the debuff string name "Thunder Clap/Frost Fever/Slow/Infected Wounds/Judgement of Justice", to warn me when none of them are up. I get that warning more often than I would like :-/

 

Korey

Procodile gives me an error every time I attempt to add a spell that's not there by default, such as AP and PoM. It's a shame because the aura timers on there are exactly what I want. Also, it's not showing me the ICD for sundial and egg.

Can anyone recommend another addon with timers for your auras in a bar format (for IV/PoM/AP/sundial proc, etc)? PowerAuras has timers but not in the countdown bar format that I'd like.

 

Deerslayer

Helllo All,

I am a avid reader of this thread and there is a ton of useful information.

Like a few other posts I have read, I am about 2K short of the 5K dps #'s i see quoted. I dont have a WWS recap of a recent fight, but below is my fight.

Pots - Frost Wyrm, maybe a SP food

If POM Available Then
.....2AB
.....POM
.....AB
.....[aBarr | mBarr]
.....:GOTO Beginning
Else If AP available Then
.....AP
.....IV
.....Use Sundial Trinket
.....3AB [aBarr | mBarr]
.....:GOTO Beginning
Else
.....3AB [aBarr | mBarr]
.....:GOTO Beginning
End

Am I missing something? Is my gear good-enough (sp dmg 1880 unbuff)

Here is the wowarmory of my toon Sheepslayer

 

Mercurial

Considering you have earned ~350 EoH and ~40 EoV I assume you run more 10s than 25s. It is less likely that you will be fully raid buffed which is almost required to do 5k dps.

Your meta is not activated.

Assuming you have a shadow priest or boomkin the Mark of the War Prisoner's value drops greatly.