◊ nathanbp

That won't quite work for Prot Pallies. It's not the Judgement of Justice - Spell - World of Warcraft spell/debuff, it's the Judgements of the Just - Spell - World of Warcraft talent. There's no way to tell from the buffs list if the Judgement on the mob has been applied by a pallie with that talent or not.

 

Anomi

I've been waiting in the hopes that this would eventually be addressed but since it has been a week since the nerf and I dont believe there is any publicly available tool to figure it out, I figured I'd just bring it up myself.

People have made vague references but I don't believe there has been any definitive answer. Is 18/51/0 +2 equal or superior to arcane as a general rule? The last version of Rawr is still putting Arcane at a couple hundred DPS advantage but that was prior to the nerf.

I've stuck it out with arcane and after refining my rotation and tweaking my gear I was able to roughly get back to where I was prior, but if there is a better DPS spec I'd like to switch to it as Arcane has definitely lost its luster.

Also, several people have pegged FFB spec as lagging significantly behind either TTW/Fire or Arcane but I've also heard the claim that FFB is the best scaling spec we have. Is it simply that FFB won't shine until Ulduar gear raises our potential stat levels?

 

Arcyla

This was back when you could dobble dipp in the AB buff so both MBAM and ABar would get the AB buff. And I used it when i was a scorch bitch (you lose icy veins) and it worked perfectly.

But as said, now it's useless.

 

Omnia

Would a pally without Judgement of the Just ever apply Judgement of Justice in a 25man? (Serious question)

 

Shaewyn

This has also been giving me grief. Trying to use AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr) is very difficult. To use this as advertised, you need to do AB AB AB ([mbarr] or (Pause)abarr) to react to the procs. Waiting is not ideal.

Essentially, if you do not get an MBAM proc on the first two AB casts, you are going to fire off ABAR instead. If you do get an MBAM Proc off of the third AB, or off of the ABAR for that matter, you need to decide what to do.

At this point is it higher DPS to fire an unbuffed MBAM or is it better to fully buff MBAM before firing it and risk wasting MBAM Procs? How much DPS do we lose in either case?

Given that AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr) is not functionally plausible, if either of our less ideal alternatives cause a DPS loss of >62dps (0.12%), AB AB AB AM becomes our highest practical DPS rotation.

 

Masnie

In a Raid with 3 paladins the 3rd (holy) paladin would judge justice, so he doesn't overwrite Light/Wisdom judged by the other paladins.
The attack speed debuff of "Judgements of the Just" is not tied to any particular Judgement, it will trigger on any Judgement performed by the protection paladin. There is currently no way to track this debuff.
Normally the protection paladin should be the one judging wisdom, so as long as noone overwrites that judgement, you could assume JotJ to be present as long as wisdom is up.

 

Soul

If you have all three types of pallies in a raid, then the Holy Pallies tend to apply JoJ. A Prot Pally is judging every nine seconds, a Ret Pally every eight, while a Holy Pally has to judge once a minute to keep JotP up. A Ret pally tends to have larger JoL, leaving the Prot Pally to Judge Wisdom and relegating Holy Pallies to Justice.

 

Korey

AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr) already assumes that you do not pause on the third AB. You just Abar and carry the MB (if it procs) to the next cycle. You do not immediately fire off a zero stacked MB; you build up three stacks of AB, then use MB.

The only way you can mitigate this problem once in a while is to use PoM on the third AB when a) it's up and b) you don't yet have an MB ready to go.

 

willem11

I believe it has been proved that using MB immedeatly is better, since there is a significant chance your next 2 ab casts will proc it again anyway. Same counts for a MB proc on the first AB, its better firing it after your current (second) AB finishes, instead of using it after your 3rd AB (and risk losing a MB proc).

I believe you can treat MB the same as a ffb/fb treats hotstreak, its valid to save it but only if you do not risk overwriting it and loosing one MB that way.

So as far as im aware 'saving' your MB proc untill 3 stacks AB is not optimal.

 

◊ nathanbp

No, you're wrong, Kavan's cycle calculations take into account that you won't be able to notice the MB proc until after you start casting the next spell, and for the AB AB AB ([MBarr] or ABarr) cycle, it is optimal to build up to 3 stacks of AB before using it. You should never pause after casting the 3rd AB.

 

Xmasman

I read the most posts of the thread and i wondered why the rotation
AB AB ([mbarr] or AB abarr)
never cames up?

On the first page these two rotations are mentioned:
AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr) 5132.355
AB AB ([mbarr] or AB AM) 5031.662

Would the rotation AB AB ([mbarr] or AB abarr) not be best in main cycle usage, which have more dps like AB AB ([mbarr] or AB AM) but better dpm as AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr)?

Or is there anywhere a list of dpm/dps values (not only the cycles from Kavan's)?

 

homet

I think with the number of tweaks, nerfs, adjustments, clarifications and "changes in philosophy" that arcane has experienced in the last month, it may be worth considering your proposition. That maybe shooting frostbolts in an arcane rotation (that still makes use of AB3->MBAM) is to be considered. We will need rawr and some help building the cycles correctly, but my initial impression is that 50/0/21 might with frostbolt, arcane missile and molten armor (maybe keeping arcane blast?) glyphs might yield an easier DPM tradeoff to manage for longer fights. Getting Cold Snap as the 21st talent point in the frost tree may actually yield a little more than previously thought to, given the asynchronous arcane power/icy veins/trinket cooldown cycles.

I think I will go to rawr and do some field testing and report my findings.

 

epoh

Unless something has changed the gem you put in your eternal belt buckle does not count towards your meta.

 

Physicist

Does the current version of rawr include the AM glyph? I am not sure it has been updated for 3.0.9.

My guess is that AB-3-FB-AM regardless of proc will be worse dps than AB-3-AM, but may provide a significant mana benefits over the next best rotation, making it optimal in this regard.

But then I looked over the damage on frostbolt and was not so impressed - less dps than AB(0). With elemental precision and icy veins in that tree, it's hard to imagine going to fire will be any better. So now I am thinking it was a bad idea.

 

TigaFin

The gem in the eternal belt buckle does count for the meta gem. I originally decided to go with the belt buckle + a gem on the head piece just because it made ugprades a lot easier. I'm currently using a [Cincture of Polarity] and [Chain of the Ancient Wyrm] with blue gems on them and the meta gem is active (no other blue gems).

 

Dahkeus

Yea, I can confirm this. My second blue gem comes from my belt buckle and my meta is active.


@ Physisit: Unless you can adjust the programming of Rawr itself, it is not updated for 3.0.9. According to their website, they hope to have the changes from the latest patch integrated into rawr "soon".

Source: Rawr - Discussions

 

Toshimo

This may work, but is a terrible idea in practice. You should be putting your second blue gem in a piece where you will be getting a socket bonus. In your case, this would be for the +4 INT on your [Sandals of Crimson Fury]. Then you can put an SP gem in your belt.

 

Raencloud

To call it a terrible idea and then suggest picking up a 4 intellect set bonus (as if it were a major impact on something) is a bit silly. You are right, if you have 2 blue slots available in your gear, you should just put the purple gems in those slots and pick up a set bonus instead of putting them in your belt buckle. However, when you are considering the possibility of frequent upgrades (RNG permitting), it's not necessarily a bad practice to use the belt buckle as your second blue gem slot until your gear is stable.

 

Toshimo

Initially I had this as picking up the +7 SP from [Heigan's Putrid Vestments], but I realized he was not getting the yellow socket either. It's about forming good habits, though. Pre-planning your sockets (especially when JC-gems are involved) can make a difference.

 

Lerxst

I use Elkano's Buff Bars to great success for this purpose. Additionally I have it show a timer for Fungal Creep, so I know when to go and grab another one, Herosim and things like that. Once you know what the slash command is (/ebb) it's easy to set up.

 

iampeebrain

I've been a long time reader but a first time poster.

I was in a pug naxx the other day with a another arcane mage and I am Ffb. He was doing more DPS, but I seemed to be doing more DPM. I've been trying to convince myself to go to Arcane, but i can't seem to wrap my head around it because in my experiences, arc/fire or FFb always seem to out DPM arcane. In this case, he was better geared then I was so I'm even more reluctant to make the switch. So my only question is that if you have a solid rotation down for Arcane, and my understanding is ABx3 (MBAM or Abarr), is the only way to increase your DPM as arcane to line up your evocations with you're icy veins or am i missing something??

 

galzohar

How exactly are you measuring DPM?

Either way, bosses and mobs die from damage done, not DPS nor DPM, so make sure you maximize what you actually need to maximize. Increasing DPM is only good if it results in also increasing total damage done, which is often not the case with FFB specs.

 

Keld

I have found that if you have a Pally MT, you need to be more cautious and aware about how the movement speed debuff is being applied on bosses.

In my core raid group we only have 2 pallies, 1 prot and 1 holy pally. The prot pally is a MT and he judge's Vengeance. The holy pally judge's Wisdom. The prot pally also isn't specced into Judgement of the Just because he thinks it's wasted points (from a prot pally's POV) if other classes are providing it.

Now this is true because we have DPS DKs in our raid that provide the Frost Fever debuff. On other occassions, our prot Warrior or DK might be MTing but in most instances, the prot pally is the MT. I'm not sure if other movement debuffs like hamstring, FFB etc actually still work on bosses, just not as a triggerring effect for ToTW for mages.

In any case, this just means that the 3 arcane mages have to be very aware during fights if ToTW is going to be active or not. For instance, what if the DKs aren't raiding, or if they die? What if they're assigned to adds on Sarth3D, and so they're not actually on the drakes or Sarth himself? What if you have future encounters in Ulduar which are Zeliek-like, where your melee cannot engage the boss or for some other reason is better designated elsewhere in the fight?

I know it's a raid composition thing, but considering the various concerns that've been stated here I think the general rule is not to take "ToTW being active" for granted. Certainly, some people have the benefit of a perfect raid composition while others don't. I had to raid for 2 weeks without our survival hunter or spriest present, and 1 pally judging wisdom... was fun times for arcane :P

 

asys

It's an addon which supposedly should be detecting the uptime of TtW Seeing as our melee classes thinks the bosses are immune and looking at the bosses in WWS didn't show TtW by itself it was not much to use as proof towards these who dont belive in magic

Altho looking back at the fights in WWS it seems that on a 6 minutte fight there's 2-3 Thunder Clap up and it seems we are missing out on a wast amount of dmg.

If a mage decides to put on slow by himself, how much would this mean in numbers for our overal dps. Should we relay on DPS classes to keep it up, or make sure of getting the debuff up our self in case they are slacking.

 

• Astrylian

If your guildies don't believe that TtW works, I don't know what to tell you. And WWS only shows thunderclap debuffs when they fall off and a new one is applied. Refreshing an existing one doesn't count toward that. There's no way, at all, that you should have to use Slow to maintain TtW in a raid. That problem is on your tanks to fix, if it's really a problem.

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