The Arcane thread - Page 54

Korrigan · 02/02/09, 6:10 AM

Why are there no 18/53/0 FB numbers in your Arcane vs FFB comparisons?

Hibbo · 02/02/09, 8:18 AM

In our Raid we have 2 Arcane Mages and 1 FFB/FB Mage. And to be fair, to compare the 3 Specs I let the Focus Magic Buff unselected for the FFB Mage. Because the first choice for the other Mages is a Mage that can give them a FM Buff back.

whitelancer · 02/02/09, 9:50 AM

Has anyone tested and/or does anyone have numbers for not using Barr after MBarr?

I was playing with the training dummies, and it seems to be lower DPS, but I was curious if the testers who came up with the really nice tables/stats could include some numbers for:

ABx3 [MBarr | Abarr]

Since things don't clip anymore, I was just curious if it's still worth casting Abarr after a MBarr proc, or whether it's better to get back into the higher critting AB sooner.

guyiluz · 02/02/09, 11:25 AM

Hi all, i would like to know if there is any chance to see a raid valid arcane powered ffb spec , something like :
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...h=042011000000

assuming that im hit capped and a simple rotation of arcane barrage,ffb with missle barrage procs (no arcane blasts).

and about the cookie cutter arcane spec: for max dps - if my arcane barrage procs missile barrage should i use it right away or do AB*3 first?

thanks in advance.

manly · 02/02/09, 12:18 PM

Look, I'll have to explain something here. Ignore for a second the Mind Mastery/FFB bug (which really doesn't changes the numbers much anyway). Lets take a FFB build. FFB builds dps comes in major parts from hot streak and living bomb, not FFB dps, despise the fact it has a great crit multiplier. In a FFB build, the FFB (spell) dps is really bad, something around 4200-4500. And it just so happens that a 51/10/8 and a 0/53/18 build have the exact same crit multiplier on FFB because spell power is a carbon-copy of burnout.

In other words, without even looking at the numbers involved, I can tell you with confidence that such a build will never work. Maybe if you instead did fireballs to replicate a 18/53/0 build (since its higher dps than ffb builds anyway for single target dps), not to mention that talent points invested for it would make a lot more sense.

solbergb · 02/02/09, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Vulkaire

Potion of Speed when used in conjunction with Icy Veins and Bloodlust will push your instants below the 1 second gcd cap. Either way, a 2-3 dps difference is well within the margin of error of any spreadsheet/simulation, so potion choice is pretty much a toss-up for FFB.

I tend to leave potions out of calculations as they're a buffer against the fight not going as expected. If I don't need mana or health before the final burndown phase, I pop a haste potion once one of hyperspeed accellerators or icy veins is on cooldown. (assuming bloodlust is running).

This also assumes the fight isn't so much on farm that max raid dps is really needed. Most fights at the moment I don't need to use any potions beyond wanting to do a bit better on the damage meters. I'm more likely to pop a haste potion, for example, if we've had some dumb deaths earlier in the fight and the raid dps is lower than usual.

Vulkaire · 02/02/09, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hibbo

In our Raid we have 2 Arcane Mages and 1 FFB/FB Mage. And to be fair, to compare the 3 Specs I let the Focus Magic Buff unselected for the FFB Mage. Because the first choice for the other Mages is a Mage that can give them a FM Buff back.

Your mages aren't too bright then. FFB will get much more dps out of that 3% crit than an arcane spec which scales horribly with crit.

Korrigan · 02/02/09, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Vulkaire

Your mages aren't too bright then. FFB will get much more dps out of that 3% crit than an arcane spec which scales horribly with crit.

So how about: elemental shamans get Focus Magic, FFB specs don't and it STILL stays unchecked for FFB in rawr for comparisons

Peacemaker7 · 02/02/09, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Sroneous

I love the work that has been done in this thread on rotations. However, I would suggest putting the Arcane Barrage (abarr) as the first element of each sequence in the summary table, as follows:

cycle dps mps dpm general use note
abarr [mbarr abarr]* AB3+ [mbarr] 5028.084 412.3207 12.19 mana dump cast mbarr/abarr only at 3 or 0 stack
abarr AB3+ [mbarr] 5013.697 395.6343 12.67 mana dump cast mbarr/abarr only at 3 stack
abarr AB AB AB [mbarr] 4801.682 237.0959 20.25 main cycle
abarr AB [AB AB mbarr] 4668.696 181.7985 25.68 main cycle
abarr AB [AB mbarr] 4566.665 145.9942 31.28 main cycle
abarr AB [AB mbarr AB]* 4500.556 128.9478 34.90 mana saving no abarr after mbarr
abarr AB [mbarr AB]* 4445.778 116.023 38.32 mana saving no abarr after mbarr
AB AM 3743.657 73.89004 50.67 mana saving

([] denotes conditional statement. Cast only on missile barrage proc.)
([]* denotes conditional statement that is optionally repeated. Repeat as long as missile barrage procs.)
(example: abarr AB [AB AB mbarr] indicates: "abarr AB" (without mbarr proc) and "abarr AB AB AB mbarr" when mbarr procs)

By putting the abarr as the first element of each sequence, it makes the sequence an exact match for the recommended rotations, which should always begin with the high DPS abarr. Also note how it clarifies the mana saving sequences.

This change will provide the final touches that make this table into a cookbook of possible sequences. One could view a casting session as series of sequence 3s (main sequence), followed by a series of sequence 2s (mana burning), and it will completely and accurately describe each spell in the rotation.

The only fly in the ointment is the transition into the final sequence, the extreme mana saving AB/AM sequence; if this is preceeded by an AB, then an abarr should be performed prior to starting the first (and only the first) AB/AM sequence. Any ideas how to indicate that in the simple (and very clear) notation that Manly uses?

Agreed. I was going to post the same suggestion and decided against it. But not because it didn't make a lot of sense. I always start my rotations with ABarr, why not start the notation the same way?

Pheroz · 02/02/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Korrigan

So how about: elemental shamans get Focus Magic, FFB specs don't and it STILL stays unchecked for FFB in rawr for comparisons

http://elitistjerks.com/1080783-post706.html

Already discussed in this thread. It's best to put it on the Frostfire mage if there is one.

Mechizar · 02/02/09, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Pheroz

http://elitistjerks.com/1080783-post706.html

Already discussed in this thread. It's best to put it on the Frostfire mage if there is one.

Clearly, with an equally geared frostfire mage vs. ele shaman, the mage gets it. In practice, people aren't all geared the same. While the ele shaman probably won't get it regardless, a well-geared boomkin or shadow priest is likely to get my FM over the slightly-well-geared FFB mage.

Exactly what the cutoff point is would be interesting to know. My raids have a very wide range of gear levels.

Duravi · 02/02/09, 2:08 PM

Just wanted to add there is one other thing I didn't consider with the potion usage scenario for FFB. If you are using hyperspeed accelerators adding in that extra haste will slant the ratings a little more in wild magics favor as well. Currently there is no way to calculate this in rawr since hyperspeed accelerators are not modeled correctly but it is easy enough to deduce.

Jariel · 02/02/09, 2:13 PM

Why would you start an AB cycle with an unstacked ABarr?? I can see an argument about casting an instant while running into position as a FFB or Fire mage would cast Living Bomb in that circumstance as well, but I would hardly consider that to be the beginning of my rotation. Are you starting Patchwork with an instant unbuffed ABarr and then waiting a cooldown before starting your dps cycle?? I can't say I agree with that being how all rotations start.

Kintoun · 02/02/09, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jariel

Why would you start an AB cycle with an unstacked ABarr?? I can see an argument about casting an instant while running into position as a FFB or Fire mage would cast Living Bomb in that circumstance as well, but I would hardly consider that to be the beginning of my rotation. Are you starting Patchwork with an instant unbuffed ABarr and then waiting a cooldown before starting your dps cycle?? I can't say I agree with that being how all rotations start.

Not sure what your worry is. It's ONE extra Abarr for the entire fight. The diff is slight as hell. A) Yes it is good for getting into position. B) Yes that 1 GCD is better spent on a unbuffed Abarr.

ABarr AB AB AB Abarr AB AB AB Abarr AB AB AB

OR

AB AB AB Abarr AB AB AB Abarr AB AB AB

Peacemaker7 · 02/02/09, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jariel

Why would you start an AB cycle with an unstacked ABarr?? I can see an argument about casting an instant while running into position as a FFB or Fire mage would cast Living Bomb in that circumstance as well, but I would hardly consider that to be the beginning of my rotation. Are you starting Patchwork with an instant unbuffed ABarr and then waiting a cooldown before starting your dps cycle?? I can't say I agree with that being how all rotations start.

I do it because it increases the probability that MB will proc before I blow the ABx3 stack on an ABarr instead of an MBAM (and I just love watching the MBAM machine gun).