The Arcane thread - Page 60

Korey · 02/25/09, 3:22 PM

Based on what people have stated about only attack speed snares working on TtW (as opposed to movement impairing ones), I think there's an easy way to see if something will or won't affect it. Check wowhead, and if the spell or its resulting debuff has the effects:

Apply Aura: Haste - Melee or Apply Aura: Haste - Ranged or both

with a negative value (ie. -10 for Thunder Clap), then TtW will work on it. Examples of spells that fit this requirement:

Thunder Clap - Spell - World of Warcraft
Infected Wounds - Spell - World of Warcraft
Frost Fever - Spell - World of Warcraft
Slow - Spell - World of Warcraft
Chilled - Spell - World of Warcraft (Ice Armor)
Cripple - Spell - World of Warcraft (Doomguard)

Examples of spells that don't:

Frostfire Bolt - Spell - World of Warcraft
Chains of Ice - Spell - World of Warcraft
Frost Trap Aura - Spell - World of Warcraft

The only problem I ran into is Judgement of the Just, since it's a talent that changes the effect of other spells. Perhaps we can make a full list of attack speed modifying spells and see if this theory works?

Dahkeus · 02/25/09, 3:47 PM

Lots of people have been stating lots of things, but I haven't seen any source to back up these claims. =S

TigaFin · 02/25/09, 6:06 PM

Dr. Boom is probably still the most boss-like target for testing things like this. I wish they'd fix the boss level target dummies though.

Fux0r · 02/25/09, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by cbags

Those abilities while they happen on the dummies, whould not affect whether or not TtW or the Glyph of BS proc, or happen. Snared is different than Slowed, as far as game mechanics are concerned? At least as it applies to bosses.

Snared is different than Slowed, but this is how ToTW tooltip is displayed:

Your Frostbolt, Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Blast, and Arcane Barrage abilities deal 12% more damage to snared or slowed targets.

Now saying snared OR slowed would make me think snared in place (can't imagine how else you can interpret snare) and Slowed as in slowed attack speed, making FFB snare effect that happens on boss dummy skew the results of the test.

♦ nathanbp · 02/25/09, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by TigaFin

Dr. Boom is probably still the most boss-like target for testing things like this. I wish they'd fix the boss level target dummies though.

If you're going to be testing how TtW or other abilities work on bosses, I recommend you get a couple friends and do your tests on some easily accessible real boss, for example Malygos. A tank and a healer or 2 ought to be able to handle normal mode Malygos long enough to gather reasonable test data with Arcane Missiles.

Peacemaker7 · 02/25/09, 7:29 PM

Originally Posted by manly

Rotations

cycle	dps	mps	dpm	dpm tradeoff (next cycle)	dpm tradeoff (cycle 2)	general use	note
AB3+ [mbarr]	5495.957	387.9541	14.17		1.85	mana dump / during AP	cast mbarr only at 3 stack. * see note2 below
AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr)	5132.355	190.8791	26.89	1.85		main cycle / during AP
AB AB AB AM	5070.111	157.7089	32.15	1.88	1.88	main cycle / during AP
AB AB ([mbarr] or AB AM)	5031.662	146.4452	34.36	3.41	2.27	main cycle
AB ([AB mbarr] or abarr)	4760.778	87.75334	54.25	4.62	3.60	mana saving	* see note below
AB ([mbarr] or abarr)	4677.5	74.82857	62.51	6.44	3.92	mana saving	* see note below
AB AM	4184.583	32.69562	127.99	11.71	5.99	mana saving

([] denotes conditional statement. Cast only on missile barrage proc.)
(example: AB AB ([mbarr] or AB AM) indicates: "AB AB AB AM" (without mbarr proc) and "AB AB mbarr" when mbarr procs)
(clarification: AB3+ refers to AB spamming. It also means you must cast at least 3 AB)

I use this chart from page1 as my Bible. However, I would like to see a few more rotations. I typically use:

AB ([mbarr] or abarr)
AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr)

and when I really need to burst I also use

AB AB AB (AB) ([mbarr] or abarr)
AB AB AB (AB AB) ([mbarr] or abarr)
AB AB AB (AB AB AB) ([mbarr] or abarr)

which means cast mbarr after 3 ABs if procced but cast up to 4, 5 or 6 ABs respectively to trigger the proc before dumping the buff and starting over. Can somebody provide the DPS, MPS, and DPM stats for these rotations? I would also love to see the probability of casting mbarr vs. abarr on all rotations (mathematics of dynamic cycles anyone?). Pmbarr + Pabarr = 1 for a complete cycle.

Thank you

Areal · 02/25/09, 8:45 PM

I am having trouble figuring out what is going on with my hit. I have no trouble following
this thread and everything makes complete sense. However I have read a few different
numbers regarding hit cap. The most recent is 209 with AF/EM and a SP/FF.

My hit cap is 218 and I have alot of misses, i for the life of me cant figure out why
if the cap is 209. We pretty much always have a SP or Druid in raid as well as Draenei.

If i equip my mark of the war prisoner then i rarely get a miss.

I would appreciate any input into what I am missing, ive never had a trouble with misses in FFB or
the old 40/0/21 spec. I am at a loss.

Areal

akimsko · 02/25/09, 8:49 PM

According to Rawr 2.2.0, abarr should only be used under very few conditions. So few in fact, that I think it's safe to say that abarr is pretty much obsolete for raiding as of 3.0.9. It might still be worth getting the talent, for the few movement intensive fights out there. But it shouldn't really be a part of a normal rotation any more.

AB3AM and ABSpam3MBAM are basicly the only cycles you'll want to use in a properly set up 25 man raid.

A bit sad that a spec that started out as being so different and exciting, now end up being just like the others, maybe even a bit more boring :|

@Areal
The hit cap of 209 is correct (not counting a draenei in group). So either your SP is not specced into misery, your moonkin is not applying Imp. FF, or you did not get 3/3 AF and 3/3 EP.

Areal · 02/25/09, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by akimsko

@Areal
The hit cap of 209 is correct (not counting a draenei in group). So either your SP is not specced into misery, your moonkin is not applying Imp. FF, or you did not get 3/3 AF and 3/3 EP.

Thanks for the reply, I have checked and our SP is spec'd misery and was in raid and we also had a draenei in raid.
Id gladly link a WWS if it helps anyone figure out my problem. I am spec'd 3/3 in AF/EP.

Omnia · 02/25/09, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by Areal

I am having trouble figuring out what is going on with my hit.

You shouldn't be getting misses. With a Draenei in your group, your hitcap should be 184. Maybe a WWS would help you, but I suspect your spriest/boomkin are either badly specced, dead or distracted (e.g. Razuvious, Faerlina).

Originally Posted by akimsko

AB3AM and ABSpam3MBAM are basicly the only cycles you'll want to use in a properly set up 25 man raid.

I disagree. AB3Abar3MBAM is still an optimal cycle (for my gear, it's even optimal during AP). I find it a lot better than AB3AM in terms of mobility, as I just can't stand being stuck there with 4-second AM casts.

Kavan · 02/25/09, 9:31 PM

Originally Posted by Peacemaker7

I use this chart from page1 as my Bible. However, I would like to see a few more rotations. I typically use:

AB ([mbarr] or abarr)
AB AB AB ([mbarr] or abarr)

and when I really need to burst I also use

AB AB AB (AB) ([mbarr] or abarr)
AB AB AB (AB AB) ([mbarr] or abarr)
AB AB AB (AB AB AB) ([mbarr] or abarr)

which means cast mbarr after 3 ABs if procced but cast up to 4, 5 or 6 ABs respectively to trigger the proc before dumping the buff and starting over. Can somebody provide the DPS, MPS, and DPM stats for these rotations? I would also love to see the probability of casting mbarr vs. abarr on all rotations (mathematics of dynamic cycles anyone?). Pmbarr + Pabarr = 1 for a complete cycle.

Thank you

Here's the math if you want to plug in your numbers. This state setup is shown for AB AB AB (AB AB) ([mbarr] or abarr), but math is done for generic N extra casts. (sorry for not texifying this)

            // S0: no proc at start
            // AB0-AB1-AB2-AB3-AB3-ABar3      => S0     (1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB)
            //                                => S1     (1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1 - (1-MB)*(1-MB))
            // AB0-AB1-AB2-AB3-AB3-MBAM3      => S0     (1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB)*MB
            // AB0-AB1-AB2-AB3-MBAM3      => S0     (1-MB)*(1-MB)*MB
            // AB0-AB1-AB2-MBAM3          => S0     (1 - (1-MB)*(1-MB))
            // S1: proc at start
            // AB0-AB1-AB2-MBAM3          => S0     1

            // S0 = S0 * ((1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB)*(1-MB) + (1 - (1-MB)*(1-MB))) + S1
            // S1 = S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*[(1-MB)^N]*(1 - (1-MB)*(1-MB))
            // S0 + S1 = 1

            // S1 = S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*[(1-MB)^N]*(1 - (1-MB)*(1-MB))
            // S0 = 1 / (1 + (1-MB)*(1-MB)*[(1-MB)^N]*(1 - (1-MB)*(1-MB)))
            // S1 = 1 - S0

value = S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*[(1-MB)^N] * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-AB3-AB3-ABar3) + S0 * [1-MB)^(N-1)]*(1-MB)*(1-MB)*MB*value(AB0-AB1-AB2-AB3-AB3-MBAM3) + ... + S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*MB * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-AB3-MBAM3) + S0 * (1 - (1-MB)*(1-MB)) * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-MBAM3) + (1 - S0) * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-MBAM3)

= S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*[(1-MB)^N] * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-ABar3) + S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*[(1-MB)^N] * N*value(AB3) + (1 - S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*[(1-MB)^N]) * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-MBAM3) + S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*MB * ([1-MB)^(N-1)]*N*value(AB3) + ... + 1*value(AB3))

K := S0 * (1-MB)*(1-MB)*[(1-MB)^N]

value = K * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-ABar3) + (1 - K) * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-MBAM3) + K * N * value(AB3) + S0 * (1-MB)*MB * value(AB3) * sum_i=1..N(i*(1-MB)^i)

sum_i=1..N(i*(1-MB)^i) = (1-(1-MB)^N) * (1-MB)/(MB*MB) - N * (1-MB)^(N+1) / MB

value = K * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-ABar3) + (1 - K) * value(AB0-AB1-AB2-MBAM3) + K * N * value(AB3) + S0 * (1-MB) * ((1-(1-MB)^N) * (1-MB)/MB - N * (1-MB)^(N+1)) * value(AB3)

Excalibur_Z · 02/25/09, 9:32 PM

Originally Posted by Areal

Thanks for the reply, I have checked and our SP is spec'd misery and was in raid and we also had a draenei in raid.
Id gladly link a WWS if it helps anyone figure out my problem. I am spec'd 3/3 in AF/EP.

Are you sure the misses were yours? I've noticed my Mirror Images miss occasionally in raids (which will generate a yellow Miss message, appearing identical to if you had missed). They appear not to inherit +hit talents, so that may explain it.

♦ nathanbp · 02/25/09, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Omnia

I disagree. AB3Abar3MBAM is still an optimal cycle (for my gear, it's even optimal during AP). I find it a lot better than AB3AM in terms of mobility, as I just can't stand being stuck there with 4-second AM casts.

Are you using the latest Rawr beta (2.2)? Because for me with your gear (+ T7.5 helm instead of [Circle of Flame]), it shows me as the optimal cycles being ABSpam3MBAM, then AB3AM, then AB3AM2MBAM.

akimsko · 02/25/09, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by Omnia

... I disagree. AB3Abar3MBAM is still an optimal cycle (for my gear, it's even optimal during AP). I find it a lot better than AB3AM in terms of mobility, as I just can't stand being stuck there with 4-second AM casts.

That if of course a matter of personal preference

I don't know your gear, but I won't dispute what you say is true in your case. But for high end gear, the optimal DPS is achieved with molten armor, and AB3AM+ABSpam3Mbarr. Leaving Abarr pretty much untouched. While you could switch to mage armor, and make Abarr appear in the cycles again, you'd be doing so at an overall dps loss.

As stated earlier, it's probably not a complete waste getting the Abarr talent regardless, as it's still a nice-to-have spell under certain (but few) conditions.

Korey · 02/25/09, 9:53 PM

Originally Posted by Areal

Thanks for the reply, I have checked and our SP is spec'd misery and was in raid and we also had a draenei in raid.

The draenei has to be in your group for you to get Heroic Presence. Are you sure he was in your group?

Dahkeus · 02/26/09, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by Areal

Thanks for the reply, I have checked and our SP is spec'd misery and was in raid and we also had a draenei in raid.
Id gladly link a WWS if it helps anyone figure out my problem. I am spec'd 3/3 in AF/EP.

This may seem overly obvious, but are you sure your Spriest didn't die early on the fight you are looking at or was simply targetting something different? And yes, WWS would help if the suggestions here don't answer your question.

Omnia · 02/26/09, 3:59 AM

Originally Posted by nathanbp

Are you using the latest Rawr beta (2.2)? Because for me with your gear (+ T7.5 helm instead of [Circle of Flame]), it shows me as the optimal cycles being ABSpam3MBAM, then AB3AM, then AB3AM2MBAM.

Originally Posted by akimsko

But for high end gear, the optimal DPS is achieved with molten armor, and AB3AM+ABSpam3Mbarr. Leaving Abarr pretty much untouched.

I had to click on Compute Optimal Arcane Cycles on the Options->Advanced tab, to find out what was best for my gear, raid setup, latency, etc.

"000000002" (ABspam3MBAM)
"000000012" (AB3Abar3MBAM)
"000000022" (AB3AM)

These 3 rotations are listed as optimal for me both with and without AP. But you're right, as a general rule of thumb, AB3AM and ABspam3MBAM are all people need. I just have that extra option, which I like better. (Edit: see next post.)

For reference:

Originally Posted by Kavan

The numbers in the control string have the following meaning:
1) at 0 stack with ABar not on cooldown do: 0 = AB, 1 = ABar, 2 = AM
2) at 1 stack if you don't see MB do: 0 = AB, 1 = ABar, 2 = AM
3) at 0 stack with ABar on cooldown if you don't see MB do: 0 = AB, 1 = AM
4) at 0 stack with ABar on cooldown if you see MB do: 0 = AB, 1 = AM
5) at 1 stack if you see MB do: 0 = AB, 1 = ABar, 2 = AM
6) at 2 stack if you don't see MB do: 0 = AB, 1 = ABar, 2 = AM
7) at 2 stack if you see MB do: 0 = AB, 1 = ABar, 2 = AM
8) at 3 stack if you don't see MB do: 0 = AB, 1 = ABar, 2 = AM
9) at 3 stack if you see MB do: 0 = AB, 1 = ABar, 2 = AM

Omnia · 02/26/09, 4:53 AM

Hah, so I found out why we get different results. I set my latency in Rawr as 0.05, and that's what made AB3Abar3MBAM come back to the optimal list. At a latency of 0.1 though, that rotation is just not optimal anymore. Interesting...

Areal · 02/26/09, 4:54 AM

Thanks to all who replied, I should have looked deeper into each fight before posting.
It was a combination of the Razuvious and Faerlina and one other fight that the SP died.
I usually do have a draenei in my group, I guess the SP makes that much of a difference.
When i get a new piece of gear i typically look at the "all bosses" part of the WWS for misses,
I guess in practice this is not a very good idea as im not getting the whole picture.

One other thing id like to ask is about the Egg. Rawr (not using the beta) lists the egg down
a ways, under Cannoneer's Fuselighter and Tome of Arcane Phenonmenon. I have the sundial
but after reading some of the threads it makes me think I should get the Egg. Embrace has failed
to drop but once in over a month, im tired of waiting......lol.

Thanks again

Korey · 02/26/09, 5:33 AM

Originally Posted by Omnia

Hah, so I found out why we get different results. I set my latency in Rawr as 0.05, and that's what made AB3Abar3MBAM come back to the optimal list. At a latency of 0.1 though, that rotation is just not optimal anymore. Interesting...

Originally Posted by akimsko

That if of course a matter of personal preference

I don't know your gear, but I won't dispute what you say is true in your case. But for high end gear, the optimal DPS is achieved with molten armor, and AB3AM+ABSpam3Mbarr. Leaving Abarr pretty much untouched. While you could switch to mage armor, and make Abarr appear in the cycles again, you'd be doing so at an overall dps loss.

As stated earlier, it's probably not a complete waste getting the Abarr talent regardless, as it's still a nice-to-have spell under certain (but few) conditions.

AB3Abar3MBAM is still the second most optimal cycle for me at both latency settings. I don't know if my gear is considered "high end" enough or not. Check my armory and you be the judge.

1) "000000002" (ABspam3MBAM)
2) "000000012" (AB3Abar3MBAM)
3) "000000022" (AB3AM)

At base, #2 and #3 are 70 dps apart. I'm considering switching to #3 though for simplicity and the fact that I have the Egg equipped. However that's besides the point. The point is, AB3Abar3MBAM is still a viable cycle for some, if not most people.

Edit: I increased my latency to .15 (since I get latency ranging from 100-150) and #2 disappeared off my AP cycles list but is still on the base list. Also I just did an optimization of full best in slot gear and #2 is still present on both cycle lists (with .15 latency).

Omnia · 02/26/09, 5:37 AM

I noticed that the better the gear I set up, the lower the latency needs to be for AB3Abar3MBAM to remain on the optimal list.

Pintofbrew · 02/26/09, 6:15 AM

That could be an artefact. Perhaps you're on a "step", ie, with better gear you're very near a point where one small lapse (like lag) could alter the absolute ratio between the rotations. Treat as experimental inaccuracy, as practice for most of us is quite distant from simulated reality.

If you'd like a similitude, you're thinking "under a microscope a blade sharpened by a coarse stone is less smooth, but one honed on a smooth stone can dull quicker" which strictly is correct, but what we're doing in raids is waving it around, randomly chopping and hacking away at a tree. So really how strictly critical is the stability of the dynamic of cycles?

Roywyn · 02/26/09, 8:39 AM

Originally Posted by Omnia

I noticed that the better the gear I set up, the lower the latency needs to be for AB3Abar3MBAM to remain on the optimal list.

That makes sense actually.

Higher latency punishes fast cast spells more than slowly cast spells.
Higher spell power favours Arcane Missiles over Arcane Barrage ("base damge":"SP scaling" ratio).

So, you have a situation right now where the quality of both cycles breaks even with your gear and your latency.
That means the AM cycle will pull ahead when you get more SP (and more crit due to the AM glyph, and probably with more haste as well due to slow spells/latency).
That also means that for the ABar cycle to stay on par when your gear improves, your lag has to go down, or yur have to push the buttons harder.

Originally Posted by Cobraprime

Is AB Spam with the AB Glyph, higher DPS than the regular Arc Fire rotation?

Untalented spells do shit DPS. Always. Or they'd be broken and overpowered when specced.
You are missing Empowered Arcane as major factor, as well as haste, crit, power. At least Burnout provides the crit modifier.

Without Burnout, Blast Spam was about 20% below Fireball/Pyro, so it'll never keep up.

Cobraprime · 02/26/09, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by manly

I'd like to point out this common mistake. Casting AB during molten fury won't make it magically good. If AB is worth casting for a fire spec, then it will be good to cast under all scenarios. The spells you cast during molten fury should exclusively include your best dps rotation. If it happens to be AB spam, then ok (although I very highly doubt it). Point being, the molten fury gains are just the same for AB than it is for any other fire spells, so AB is either good or no good for the build.

I understand that Molten Fury isn't a magical formula for more damage from a spell, I guess my question basically boils down to: Is AB Spam with the AB Glyph, higher DPS than the regular Arc Fire rotation? Not considering DPM as the point would be to use up all excess available mana to end the fight at 0 through a higher DPS manadump. I'm certain that RAWR will do this calculation, but am unable to figure out how.

cbags · 02/26/09, 10:51 AM

The post right before yours explains why this isn't going to be the case. In the fire tree you have a lot of talents that boost the output of your fire spells, far beyond the output of the the +5% damage from the glyph. Actually Molten Fury does make every spell better, but your fire spells are even better still.

I guess you could tell RAWR that Molten Fury time is 100% or 1, then set the fight to a relatively short time.