The Arcane thread - Page 67

Lerxst · 02/10/09, 3:28 PM

Based on the spirit behind Blizzard's PoM/AP change, that is, to lower burst damage, it made sense that casting PoM first, and THEN casting Arcane Power would defeat their purpose, even though their patch notes did not explicitly cover this scenario. Now that my realm is up, I was able to test: if you have the PoM buff on you, and you try to cast Arcane Power, the game reacts as if Arcane Power is on cooldown (it says spell is not ready, you get the sound, etc) even though it's not actually on cooldown, and my cooldown timers don't show anything.

So, at least we know that now, and it makes sense.

homet · 02/10/09, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by epoh

What would be the point of casting POM 1.5sec before the fight? You cannot use AP until POM has been CONSUMED. You can cast POM an hour before a fight, it's still not going to let you use AP until after POM is gone.

It does sound like we can get an AP/POM off at the tail end of a glyphed AP. Will just require more vigilance on your buff timers.

Out of curiosity and with respect to the model, if you have effectively cut the burst given by AP by 2/3, what is the substantive value of disallowing PoM with AP now? It's not a significant boost anymore (a trinket may likely be a bigger boost). It seems as though the fix was redundant and a new fight mechanic has been introduced without effectively addressing its stated intent.

EDIT: Additionally, with due respect to the new AP model, it seems to set a new precedent in mage play. 42-second cooldowns (with talents) for minor spellpower boosts do effectively reduce the PvP burst problem but now largely make AP an affected buff. Perhaps AP has outlived its usefulness and can be considered for the scrap heap in future releases. The DPS gain may well be more effectively applied to base spell damage or glyphs.

manly · 02/10/09, 3:33 PM

The next interesting question is whether or not to POM on AM or POM on 4th AB. Considering the new AM glyph of course. In one case you get 30% more crit on all AM (with 190%-ish crit multiplier), in the other case you get reduced cast time on AB and 30% more crit.

Raencloud · 02/10/09, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Isynx

Also I don't seem to find this anywhere, but Focus Magic got changed to give me a 3% crit increase instead of 10% when it's target crits.

Were you living in a fantasy world? I don't ever remember Focus Magic giving 10% crit (always been 3% for both parts of the spell) at any time since it's conception.

manly · 02/10/09, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by homet

Out of curiosity and with respect to the model, if you have effectively cut the burst given by AP by 2/3, what is the substantive value of disallowing PoM with AP now? It's not a significant boost anymore (a trinket may likely be a bigger boost). It seems as though the fix was redundant and a new fight mechanic has been introduced without effectively addressing its stated intent.

It quite obvious. Take an arcane mage in 3.0.8 with 2200 spell damage. That quite easy to reach with some pve gear and arcane mind. Now keep in mind I'm ignoring more spell damage coming from mana gem activation, and totems. Casting only the sequence "AP AB POM AB abarr" did 16000 damage non-crit. As I said, thats with no debuffs on the target and with no cooldowns other than AP and POM used. It would be more with totems and mana gem. And POM gives 30% more chance to crit to your 2nd AB too.

Raencloud · 02/10/09, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by manly

The next interesting question is whether or not to POM on AM or POM on 4th AB. Considering the new AM glyph of course. In one case you get 30% more crit on all AM (with 190%-ish crit multiplier), in the other case you get reduced cast time on AB and 30% more crit.

That would have to assume they fixed the earlier discovered bug with AM consuming potency and not benefiting from it's effect unless the original cast (of AM) proc'd it (clearcasting/potency).

Can someone please test whether or not this got resolved?

holovic · 02/10/09, 3:39 PM

That's an interesting question. I would think that an increased crit chance on a 3stack AB buff would yield more dps if you were to crit that AB. Though if you had a MB proc it might be a good idea to use POM on glyphed AM.

marsui · 02/10/09, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by manly

The next interesting question is whether or not to POM on AM or POM on 4th AB. Considering the new AM glyph of course. In one case you get 30% more crit on all AM (with 190%-ish crit multiplier), in the other case you get reduced cast time on AB and 30% more crit.

I thought Potency only affects the first missle and is not carried throughout.

Raencloud · 02/10/09, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by marsui

I thought Potency only affects the first missle and is not carried throughout.

Potency does indeed affect the entire AM channel. The exception being a bug that was introduced (and as far as I know still active through yesterday) where potency was consumed by the AM cast but not applied to any missiles. If the AM cast proc's clearcast/potency, however, potency would be applied to each missile and then consumed when the channel ended (CC would persist to the next spell, though).

deadlyice · 02/10/09, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by manly

The next interesting question is whether or not to POM on AM or POM on 4th AB. Considering the new AM glyph of course. In one case you get 30% more crit on all AM (with 190%-ish crit multiplier), in the other case you get reduced cast time on AB and 30% more crit.

Which definitely figures into the argument of the AM glyph vs the AP or Molten Armor Glyph.

I look forward to seeing the math done if we need to switch from AB, AP, Molten/Mage Armor Glyphing.

Am I wrong, or did the AP change actually allow us a bit of a dps boost.

If it's used every 84 seconds at 20%, that means we can use it 2x every 2mins 48 seconds (resulting in 40% over 2 min 48 seconds instead of only the 30% over 2 mins).

That's a boost in the time frame of fights we're currently looking at, excluding Sarth 3drake or something.

Opening with AP & Mirror Images could even result in a potential 3rd AP being used now in fights, mana permitting of course.

Majost · 02/10/09, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by homet

Out of curiosity and with respect to the model, if you have effectively cut the burst given by AP by 2/3, what is the substantive value of disallowing PoM with AP now? It's not a significant boost anymore (a trinket may likely be a bigger boost)...

Wrong. In game:

Originally Posted by Korey

AP is 20% for 20% more mana for 15 seconds w/ talents. 18 seconds w/ glyph. 1.4 min cooldown.

I'm very grateful they didn't go for the 10% / 42 sec route... that would have been absolutely atrocious to try to manage.

Now, we have a choice of:

Begin cooldown cycle with IV + AP + Trinket + Mana Gem

1.4 minutes later: AP back up
2.0 minutes later: Trinket + Mana Gem back up
2.4 minutes later: IV back up
(2.8 minutes later: AP back up if cast immediately at 1.4 minutes)

It's an interesting shift. In 3.0.8, we could choose to wait 24 seconds for IV to come back around. Now we can choose to wait 24 seconds for AP. It probably will end up stretching mana pretty thin as compared to the two minute evocate / gem mana cycle, though. I wonder what the optimal way to stack is now.

Omnia · 02/10/09, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by manly

In one case you get 30% more crit on all AM (with 190%-ish crit multiplier), in the other case you get reduced cast time on AB and 30% more crit.

Originally Posted by Raencloud

The exception being a bug that was introduced (and as far as I know still active through yesterday) where potency was consumed by the AM cast but not applied to any missiles.

Right, I thought PoM(Potency)-AM was broken. Given the trivial PVE dps boost that PoM is, I just have it bound to my Abar key. But if they did fix this bug, I'll move it to my AM key :-)

Isynx · 02/10/09, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Raencloud

Were you living in a fantasy world? I don't ever remember Focus Magic giving 10% crit (always been 3% for both parts of the spell) at any time since it's conception.

Hahah, my mistake. I've been spending the greater half of this week without sleep and had just finishing mulling over the postings on the chance of winters chill / scorch getting lowered to 5% (which is where I believe the 10% came from). This is better than the time I forgot buff tool-tips didn't react to changes via talents. Fantasy world indeed.

Given the 10% mana cost decrease does anyone else forsee an issue trying to get the last few seconds of icy veins to stack with evo? Even with spamming ABx3 for 20 seconds (until MBar proc-ed) I was generally never able to actually get down to the needed 40% mana.

I assume one would just cut evo early in favor of hasted evo vs non?

baldween · 02/10/09, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Majost

Wrong. In game:

I'm very grateful they didn't go for the 10% / 42 sec route... that would have been absolutely atrocious to try to manage.

Now, we have a choice of:

Begin cooldown cycle with IV + AP + Trinket + Mana Gem

1.4 minutes later: AP back up
2.0 minutes later: Trinket + Mana Gem back up
2.4 minutes later: IV back up
(2.8 minutes later: AP back up if cast immediately at 1.4 minutes)

It's an interesting shift. In 3.0.8, we could choose to wait 24 seconds for IV to come back around. Now we can choose to wait 24 seconds for AP. It probably will end up stretching mana pretty thin as compared to the two minute evocate / gem mana cycle, though. I wonder what the optimal way to stack is now.

My instinct tells me that waiting a whole minute to stack AP with IV wont pay off in the end. Probably having AP up all the time (aka, macroed to Arcane Blast, so that it pops whenever available) will result in the highest dps. Then again my math is lacking, so... Hopefully the guys at the Dynamic Cycles thread will figure this out soonish.

edit:

@above poster:
Probably, I've had issues burning 60% of my mana on the few seconds IV lasts. Now that AP got tuned down to 20% this is probably going to get harder. Then again, casting one or two more fully stacked ABs will burn your mana fast enough for this not to be much of an issue.

homet · 02/10/09, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by Majost

Wrong. In game:

I'm very grateful they didn't go for the 10% / 42 sec route... that would have been absolutely atrocious to try to manage.

Now, we have a choice of:

Begin cooldown cycle with IV + AP + Trinket + Mana Gem

1.4 minutes later: AP back up
2.0 minutes later: Trinket + Mana Gem back up
2.4 minutes later: IV back up
(2.8 minutes later: AP back up if cast immediately at 1.4 minutes)

It's an interesting shift. In 3.0.8, we could choose to wait 24 seconds for IV to come back around. Now we can choose to wait 24 seconds for AP. It probably will end up stretching mana pretty thin as compared to the two minute evocate / gem mana cycle, though. I wonder what the optimal way to stack is now.

Thank goodness. Am I ever glad to be wrong. It does make for a slightly trickier decision matrix based on the fight flow (whether you can afford to wait the extra 24 seconds due to stand-and-cast issues or a Bloodlust/Heroism lined up, etc.). Now, however, we need to see some math on whether it makes sense to synchronize which cooldowns for maximum theoretical DPS. Since Blizz seems to be moving away from the two-minute trinket model and more at the 45-second internal cooldown model, it may only be relevant to Mana Gems and IV cycles. It also portends the possibility of not really needing to talent IV down to 2:24 due to the 2:48 cooldown of AP.