Is Arcane Potency that much of a DPS boost? Is it worth more than getting 100% push back protection?
dropping a talent which is basically...10% off spellcast for +30% crit rate on next spell, for pushback eh?
I believe there are better alternatives to getting Stability rather than taking it from Potency, I thought a build with 5/5 Stability was posted earlier and it had Potency. You basically lose ArcaneFocus? and ... what's that other talent, mind went blank. But you know what I mean
Is Arcane Potency that much of a DPS boost? Is it worth more than getting 100% push back protection?
Well, think of it like this. 30% crit 10% of the time is 3% crit overall. 3% crit for 2 talent points is a pretty good investment.
Another option (the one I chose) was to drop 2 points from Arcane Focus to put into Arcane Stability. 2 points for 2% chance to hit or 2 points for 3% chance to crit? Depending on your gear, both seem like acceptable talents to drop IMO. A better option might be 2 points from Missile Barrage.
Has anybody else had difficult clipping the 5th missile especially when MB procs and you don't realize?
On top of the recent server lag, I had difficulty clipping MB AM's even when I know it's a MBAB.
Does anybody have a cast bar type mod which can split your AM channel into its missiles, I am havnig a rough time estimating, and I can't count the missiles since I lag with my computer.
There is a reason to take 4/5 Arcane Stability: when you're in a raid, an unimproved Concentration Aura will give 100% pushback protection with 4/5 Stability, but not 3/5. Due to the way pushback mechanics work, with 95% pushback resistance, you will still lose one missile if you are hit once while channeling AM. This will seriously mess up your timing because the cast bar will hardly register any pushback at all (a little over 1% of the channel bar), but your channel will end 20% earlier.
But going 3/5 to 4/5 means you lose half a talent point.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
If it is indeed true that AM does not consume PoM but does consume Arcane Potency, would it make sense to hit PoM on the first AM (assuming ABar also doesn't consume PoM, as it should not)? The way I see it, you want the +30% on your single hardest-hitting spell. I have not played arcane yet but I imagine the +60% AB-buffed AM hits the hardest (MB proc doesn't matter since it doesn't change the total damage of the spell). You would also still get your instant AB, the first one of the next rotation.
If it is indeed true that AM does not consume PoM but does consume Arcane Potency, would it make sense to hit PoM on the first AM (assuming ABar also doesn't consume PoM, as it should not)? The way I see it, you want the +30% on your single hardest-hitting spell. I have not played arcane yet but I imagine the +60% AB-buffed AM hits the hardest (MB proc doesn't matter since it doesn't change the total damage of the spell). You would also still get your instant AB, the first one of the next rotation.
iirc hitting POM before AM means the first tick of AM will consume the arcane potency buff... so you've wasted the crit bonus on 1 missile.
If it is indeed true that AM does not consume PoM but does consume Arcane Potency, would it make sense to hit PoM on the first AM (assuming ABar also doesn't consume PoM, as it should not)? The way I see it, you want the +30% on your single hardest-hitting spell. I have not played arcane yet but I imagine the +60% AB-buffed AM hits the hardest (MB proc doesn't matter since it doesn't change the total damage of the spell). You would also still get your instant AB, the first one of the next rotation.
Ideally, if Arcane Potency is absorbed by either your AM or your ABarr, you would want the higher crit % on your bigger spell thus putting it on ABarr but the problem arises that since you're trying to clip off the last missle of the AM with ABarr, how do you put the PoM on the ABarr and still manage to clip it. Unfortunately that doesn't work so its either adding the 30% crit chance increase to your 3rd Arcane Blast or your Arcane Missle.
IMO I'd put it on the 3rd Arcane Blast to increase the ramp time since we have been seeing WMO parses of AB's hitting for over 16k.
I've also looked at some comparisons regarding clipping of 5th AM tick in barrage cycles. From some preliminary numbers it seems that clipping the AM is better unless your reliability of executing the combo is above 80%. I have noticed something important though and it feels that it might be more optimal to use a different clipping strategy when AM is hasted or when not. More modeling will have to be done to answer this question.
This information was incorrect. The correct value should have been around 60% reliability to surpass clipping last tick of AM.
I went for 5/5 Arcane Stability for simplicity and dropped all points out of Arcane Focus.
I have 11% hit from gear and the 3% mana reduction doesn't matter as due to our typical raid composition (retadin and 3-4 SS hunters) mana is not really a major issue. Again I think it's one of those decisions that is very subjective to the individual making it.
The Mage theme song.
<+icesurfer> this is the fucking security industry; if you want ethics, join the Red Cross
But going 3/5 to 4/5 means you lose half a talent point.
With 95% pushback resistance, the impact of pushback on cast spells is 0.025 seconds. That's not a big deal in terms of player skill. On AM, you lose one missile, but the cast bar doesn't indicate that. It indicates (graphically) that you've lost 1.25% of your channel when in fact, you've lost 20%. So, with 18.75% of your channel remaining, the bar will disappear. This will cause confusion and I guarantee you that for the vast majority of players out there, losing half a talent point to eliminate this aspect of fighting the UI will be worth it in pushback heavy environments.
We just had a naxx clear tonight and I did my first run with 57/3/11 and found my performance to be rather lackluster. Going from topping every single boss as 0/53/18 to only topping half by not much of a margin was a bit surprising.
I'm of course not blaming the spec but rather my rotations, cooldown management and manamanagement.
I went mainly with a AB AB AB AM ABArr clipping rotation which I couldn't sustain through most fights (several fights i needed innervate 1-2 evocations, min 2 mana gems and mana pot), fights like Loatheb and Thaddius for some reason turned out to be the hardest fights to do anything. Sartharion wasnt very impressive either nor was gluth (not counting AOE).
I found myself switching down to AB AB AM ABArr sevveral times aswell to keep going even with mage armor (not glyphed though). For BL/Cooldown stacking I mainly went with AB spam to dump all mana when I thought it was time (eg ~0% mana around ~0% boss). Lag really killed me on Loatheb and Thaddius but still, I'm feeling I have the same weird mana issues I had as firemage back in TBC. We had Retadin, Shadowpriest and totems...
So I think I need to discover some smarter way to use evocation, cooldown stacking and manadumps and rotations. Is really AB AB AB AM ABArr better than AB AB AB ABArr without MB proc?
So I think I need to discover some smarter way to use evocation, cooldown stacking and manadumps and rotations. Is really AB AB AB AM ABArr better than AB AB AB ABArr without MB proc?
Well if you were using Mage Armor, received Innervates and had Shadow Priests and Retadins and still had mana issues then its something with your timing of evocation/gem usage I'd guess. You should expect to be running out of mana and needing to evocate but it shouldn't be that big of a concern with that many replenishment options.
They have said before that if you cast Evocation at the last second of heroism/IV that it'll be down to a 4.5-5 second cast depending on your haste rather than a 9-10 second cast and will get you back into the rotation. Not to mention you'll get the pushback reduction from IV so you get the full effect.
As far as whether or not to do AM on a regular basis, you'd be crazy not to if you're going for Max DPS because with the clipping you're getting 60% increased damage to AM and ABarr so you'd be losing a +60% dmg AM which is quite a bit of damage just to save ~900 mana.
We just had a naxx clear tonight and I did my first run with 57/3/11 and found my performance to be rather lackluster. Going from topping every single boss as 0/53/18 to only topping half by not much of a margin was a bit surprising.
I'm of course not blaming the spec but rather my rotations, cooldown management and manamanagement.
I went mainly with a AB AB AB AM ABArr clipping rotation which I couldn't sustain through most fights (several fights i needed innervate 1-2 evocations, min 2 mana gems and mana pot), fights like Loatheb and Thaddius for some reason turned out to be the hardest fights to do anything. Sartharion wasnt very impressive either nor was gluth (not counting AOE).
I found myself switching down to AB AB AM ABArr sevveral times aswell to keep going even with mage armor (not glyphed though). For BL/Cooldown stacking I mainly went with AB spam to dump all mana when I thought it was time (eg ~0% mana around ~0% boss). Lag really killed me on Loatheb and Thaddius but still, I'm feeling I have the same weird mana issues I had as firemage back in TBC. We had Retadin, Shadowpriest and totems...
So I think I need to discover some smarter way to use evocation, cooldown stacking and manadumps and rotations. Is really AB AB AB AM ABArr better than AB AB AB ABArr without MB proc?
I thought the known rotation was AB AB AB ABr and use AM on MB procs, at least according to what most people are saying in this thread. Were you evocating on the last second of icyveins/bloodlust? Currently I can sustain myself for around 2 minutes on a target dummy self buffed, no fight currently in the game besides 3drake sarth takes longer than 5 minutes and just having replenishment as well as kings and gift I could easily do over 5 minutes.
I have extended the generic arcane cycle model (as introduced in Mathematics of dynamic cycles) with spell selection logic to choose between clipping and not clipping the last tick of AM. From the analysis that I have done it appears that at 50% success rate of executing latency combo without clipping it is only benefitial to clip on non-hasted AM.
Upon further inspection it appears that a possible cause for this is due to how latency has a relatively larger impact on short cast spells. I realize that in the case of clipping latency does not play the same role as in normal casting. However this still raises the question of how we should attempt to model this more accurately.
The data would probably have to come from empirical testing, but some theoretical estimates can probably be made. How should we model the clipping? Should we include the average reaction time after 4th tick in this? Should this reaction time be the same for hasted and nonhasted AM? Is it a good approximation to model the average reaction time just as latency time? For the latency combo without clipping should the reaction time after 5th tick be modeled the same as reaction time after 4th tick in case of clipping? When modeling no clipping should we include the chance that we might clip the last tick anyway and how to account for that? How does the chance to successfully execute the combo differ between hasted and nonhasted AM?
So I played arcane yesterday on sarth/malygos. If anything, it was a harsh reality check and good reminder of why I would never play deep fire without burnout. Pushback resistance is not something negligible. I meant to type this a few hours back but EJ was lagging out.
I think there are many options, and that arcane builds should all include at least some points in pushback protection. The options are many:
-Arcane Subtlety
-Arcane Focus
-Magic Absorption
-Arcane Mind
There are some immediate contenders. I do believe that 2pt Arcane Subtlety is somewhat overkill. Magic Absorption is a hit and miss. It can be awesome and it can also do absolutely nothing. Generally in pve though, I just don't see why I would need it. Arcane can sustain its mana. I don't need extra mana under some fights. However, what I really want is pushback protection. Now that does comes up quite a bit on boss fights. As far as I'm concerned, its somewhat a no-brainer. I instinctively put 2/2 magic absorption over spirit, but I never thought it through.
Already that gives 3 points at a relatively cheap cost pt-wise. 60% pushback protection is quite considerable. Now comes the harder decisions. And to that I add a point of contention:
Is it worth taking the last 2 point of Arcane Stability ?
I am asking because on pushback fights I could conceivably assume I will have Concentration Aura. But do I want to rely on it ?
The next best bet is taking points away from Arcane Focus and Arcane Mind. Granted, its easy to come up with the extra hit rating, but you do lose 1% DPM. Arcane Mind, well, I think that one is a judgement call. With this said I did update the build on the first post.
Seconding this. 0/5 Stability was great on Patchwerk, on Loatheb, on Anub'Rekhan, etc., but when I went over to Sartharion+3 I really started to notice just how much raid damage there is. I may have to spec 2/5 minimum for this fight, though I don't have the benefit of Conc Aura (as we roll with Ret and Fire Resist Auras) so I may be forced into 5/5.
Speaking specifically regarding Sartharion, Arcane is arguably inferior in DPS to a Fire or FFB spec in my opinion. The frequent amount of movement required in the fight, combined with the upfront cost of AM and the relative lack of instant and <1.5s casts, means that a lot of mana is wasted for little or no damage. Fire has LB, HS Pyro, or even Fire Blast and Scorch, which can be snuck in before having to move out of a Fissure or a Tsunami, but Arcane has only Barrage for mobile damage. We downed Sarth3D last week (when I was FFB) but failed yesterday (as Arcane), so it's possible that once the third drake falls and it becomes more of a single-target fight that Arcane may pick up and perhaps surpass FFB, but in the midst of dodging so many fissures and waves it's destroying my damage and mana efficiency (for what it's worth). It's common for me to have to move out of a fissure or out of the way of a wave just as an AM cast is starting. Coupled with the fact that this is fight is considerably longer than most of the Naxx bosses, meaning mana becomes an issue, has anyone had great success with Sarth as Arcane?
I've read these forums for a long time, was an Arc/Frost mage back for most of BC, and one point I've always tried to push is to deal with actual gear you're wearing -- not what would work best for gear you don't have. Yes, optimal gear is good to know, so you can collect it, but don't base you're current spec/rotations on it. I've been using 57/3/11 since the patch and I'm happy with it. However:
In 25man raids the hit cap is 7%. I and I suspect many others are way over that cap. My first thought was to remove some points from Arcane Focus and move into Arcane Stab, but now I'm really wondering how useful those 11 talent points in frost are. 11 points for 3% mana cost reduction and Icy V seems quite a lot.
Has anyone looked at the misc Arcane talents for even slight gains? Arcane Stability without loosing anything, 2/2 Magic Absorption, 2/2 Magic Attunment, 3/3 Student of the Mind, and ??? Hard to estimate the value of 3/3 Incanter's Absorption/Prismatic Cloak/etc.
Yes, in better Arcane gear, not way over the hit cap for example, 57/3/11 should be higher dmg, but all of the above vs 3% mana and Icy V? Have to wonder.
Bash
Do it like everyone else, download rawr and look for yourself.
For the perfect gear IV is a 290 DPS boost, the third best talent of all the ones you have.
Elemental precision is ~75 DPS, Ice Floes is another 50 DPS, so there is definately more value than you imply.
And as already stated, just download Rawr and see for yourself.
I've read these forums for a long time, was an Arc/Frost mage back for most of BC, and one point I've always tried to push is to deal with actual gear you're wearing -- not what would work best for gear you don't have. Yes, optimal gear is good to know, so you can collect it, but don't base you're current spec/rotations on it. I've been using 57/3/11 since the patch and I'm happy with it. However:
In 25man raids the hit cap is 7%. I and I suspect many others are way over that cap. My first thought was to remove some points from Arcane Focus and move into Arcane Stab, but now I'm really wondering how useful those 11 talent points in frost are. 11 points for 3% mana cost reduction and Icy V seems quite a lot.
Has anyone looked at the misc Arcane talents for even slight gains? Arcane Stability without loosing anything, 2/2 Magic Absorption, 2/2 Magic Attunment, 3/3 Student of the Mind, and ??? Hard to estimate the value of 3/3 Incanter's Absorption/Prismatic Cloak/etc.
Yes, in better Arcane gear, not way over the hit cap for example, 57/3/11 should be higher dmg, but all of the above vs 3% mana and Icy V? Have to wonder.
Bash
3/3 student of the mind is a filler talent, if you check the last page manly posts a good spec that has 5/5 arcane stability by dropping some filler talents.
Incanter's absorption for PVE? Really? Don't know why you would ever be using mana shield outside of PVP or soloing or something.
Speaking specifically regarding Sartharion, Arcane is arguably inferior in DPS to a Fire or FFB spec in my opinion. The frequent amount of movement required in the fight, combined with the upfront cost of AM and the relative lack of instant and <1.5s casts, means that a lot of mana is wasted for little or no damage. Fire has LB, HS Pyro, or even Fire Blast and Scorch, which can be snuck in before having to move out of a Fissure or a Tsunami, but Arcane has only Barrage for mobile damage.
This is almost precisely my experience, and highlights that for all of Arcane's supposed advantage in mobility, the current Arcane and its rotations are profoundly immobile compared to FFB. Aside from Heigan, where you can just Barrage during the floor phase and most other specs and classes have no such option, in terms of most actual fights your windows for movement are far more restricted with Arcane.
Depending on Missile Barrage procs, you get one GCD's worth of movement every 8.5-10ish seconds with Arcane, the timing of which is fairly fixed. LB and Hot Streak pyros alone in an FFB spec are 2-3 GCDs of movement every 12 seconds. Not only that, you can hold hot streaks if there's expected near-term required movement - and you need less movement anyway since FFB spec has more range on everything.
Some in this thread say it does, and others say it does not. I can test when I get home, but can anyone show the answer definitively?
Actually, the poster who said that it isn't consumed was referring specifically to my erroneous statement about POM being consumed on the first pulse. I was recalling reply #507 on page 21 of the Upcoming Mage Changes thread, which confirmed Arcane Potency to be consumed on the first pulse, but was unable to find it as I was recalling the details wrong and searching for POM rather than Arcane Potency.
However, Pasture didn't indicate whether he tested on Live or PTR, and even it he had tested on PTR, it would have been using an outdated build, so a live 3.0.8 test may be prudent for the sake of thoroughness.
From the analysis that I have done it appears that at 50% success rate of executing latency combo without clipping it is only benefitial to clip on non-hasted AM.
I am reading this as: it is not beneficial to clip on hasted AM (given 50% combo rate). Are you saying the combo window is longer, and that the combo rate goes up in this case?
Originally Posted by Reignman
iirc hitting POM before AM means the first tick of AM will consume the arcane potency buff... so you've wasted the crit bonus on 1 missile.
Assuming you pop Mirror Images at a separate time (which may or may not mean threat issues), is there something to prevent us from hitting iv/pom/ap for the Abar of a shatter combo? I'd imagine that's more damage than trinketing on the 3rd AB, but I may be wrong...
01/22/09, 5:51 PM
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