The Arcane thread - Page 77

deadlyice · 02/11/09, 5:03 PM

Are Vontre and Manly modeling with the Arc Power/ Arc Blast / Molten Armor Glyphs? Or has the Arc Missle Glyph been put in for one of the three standards?

Lyer · 02/11/09, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Parissa

So stealing from Pint (apologies) - and according to Vontre's work

The 3.0.9 rotation/priority tree is the following

(1) MBAM over anything
(2) ABarr if AB is stacked to 3, and mana restraints don't allow AB spam
(3) AB if none of the above

Correct?

Thanks to all who put in the time to theorycraft things out - didn't have the time today to do the calculations myself.

I was under the impression that you would MBAM when it procs for mana saving, and to use the proc at max AB stacks for maximum DPS.

Kavan · 02/11/09, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

I addressed this in the post already.

I'm afraid you're reinventing the wheel here. Check over the mathematics of dynamic cycles thread. Your claim that a fixed ABx3-AM rotation is not viable is not well founded.

mastakaj · 02/11/09, 5:08 PM

So the question is, do we save MBAM for 3 stack? Do we finish off MBAM with an Abarr (MBAM-Abarr)? Do we cast MBAM-Abarr-MBAM-Abarr, etc. if MBAM stays up?

Originally Posted by deadlyice

Are Vontre and Manly modeling with the Arc Power/ Arc Blast / Molten Armor Glyphs? Or has the Arc Missle Glyph been put in for one of the three standards?

I believe the AM Glyph replaces the AP Glyph.

jdpowers19 · 02/11/09, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by Omnia

Answers in no particular order:
- 50/3/18 sounds like a logical next step, but which 7 talents could you really drop in the Arcane Tree to make Frost Channeling worth it?

I messed around a little with this spec in a 10 man Sarth with replenishment. It seems that mana is not an issue even with a ABspam MBAM rotation. The negative side to this is that it makes the spec more simple-minded (re: boring), but I dont have too much an issue with that since there is still extensive cooldown management. The positive side to this is AB spam can be used for everycooldown minimum, and possibly the whole fight depending on length. The kill was no shorter than a standard naxx 25 length fight, maybe even longer, and I had no mana issues. Im going to test it on KT/Saph tonight and see if there are any problems.

Talented AB and AM both scale better than ArBar does post coef. nerf. My guess is the ArBar change will cause 50/3/18 with ABspam MBAM rotation to become standard, especially as gear progresses.

Edit: I think the main question about 50/3/18 is whether Incineration is better than Netherwind Presence. My guess is Netherwind Presence is better, meaning it probably should be 53/0/18. Need math though.

Dorrinal · 02/11/09, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Omnia

- 50/3/18 sounds like a logical next step, but which 7 talents could you really drop in the Arcane Tree to make Frost Channeling worth it?

Low-yield talents to drop: Arcane Stability, Magic Attunement, Arcane Meditation, Arcane Mind, Mind Mastery, Incineration. Note that two of these talents already affect mana efficiency (Meditation and Mind).

What you take to get to Frost Channeling: A bunch of buffs to Blizzard. Pure filler.

On top of that, in my gear, Rawr tells me Arcane Focus is even better than Frost Channeling. Looks like a wash at best. May as well stick with Arcane Barrage.

jdpowers19: Netherwind Presence is stronger than Incineration now matter how you slice it (check Rawr).

jdpowers19 · 02/11/09, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Dorrinal

Netherwind Presence is stronger than Incineration now matter how you slice it (check Rawr).

Quite right on that. Here's the build that I'm thinking:

53/0/18

No dps or efficiency talents are lost in going for Frost Channeling other than Incineration. So is 6% crit to AB worth the mana issues and cooldown issues that come with traditional ArBar based builds (57/3/11)?

Cptinsano · 02/11/09, 5:28 PM

so now should we be using glyph of arcane missles istead of arcane power? which armour glyph should we be useing glyph of molten armour or glyph of mage armour?

Omnia · 02/11/09, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by jdpowers19

I think the main question about 50/3/18 is whether Incineration is better than Netherwind Presence. My guess is Netherwind Presence is better, meaning it probably should be 53/0/18. Need math though.

I'll bank on Netherwind Presence being better also. But beyond that:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator
+ 3 yards of range
+ 30% pushback resistance (assuming you have imp conc aura, i.e. a big if)
+ 6% AB crit

vs

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator
+ 10% aoe crit damage
+ 6% aoe damage
+ 10% mana savings

Raencloud · 02/11/09, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by jdpowers19

Quite right on that. Here's the build that I'm thinking:

53/0/18

No dps or efficiency talents are lost in going for Frost Channeling other than Incineration. So is 6% crit to AB worth the mana issues and cooldown issues that come with traditional ArBar based builds (57/3/11)?

While it's true no direct dps/efficiency talents are affected, the practicality of the build suffers even more so from the same symptoms that the very original 57/3/11 (the one that included MA instead of arcane stability) build suffered from: lack of push back protection. The problem is even more prevalent in a build that is designed around casting more ABs and AMs than it's predecessors (which made use of instant Abarrs). Even if it were possible for this build to exceed the standard build on an encounter like Patchwerk, the dps gain (if any) will not be significant enough to warrant the lack of push back that is needed on many other fights.

Dorrinal · 02/11/09, 5:36 PM

jdpowers19: So you're clearly losing some dps (Arcane Barrage and Incineration). That's probably a great spec for someone with mana troubles or who finds Blizzard spam on trash particularly enthralling. Personally I've been seeing a lot of pushbacks on the hard fights so a build with 0/5 Arcane Stability is difficult for me to recommend. I'd say the answer is "no, not worth it" based on those numbers and personal experience... but your mileage may vary.

Idle thought: With AP down to a 1.4 minute cooldown we don't even need any points in Ice Floes. Just synchronize Icy Veins with every other AP. Too bad there's nothing else in Frost worth getting!

jdpowers19 · 02/11/09, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dorrinal

jdpowers19: So you're clearly losing some dps (Arcane Barrage and Incineration). That's probably a great spec for someone with mana troubles or who finds Blizzard spam on trash particularly enthralling. Personally I've been seeing a lot of pushbacks on the hard fights so a build with 0/5 Arcane Stability is difficult for me to recommend. I'd say the answer is "no, not worth it" based on those numbers and personal experience... but your mileage may vary.

Idle thought: With AP down to a 1.4 minute cooldown we don't even need any points in Ice Floes. Just synchronize Icy Veins with every other AP. Too bad there's nothing else in Frost worth getting!

Thats true, losing stability does hurt. My train of thought on this spec came from the idea of using AM to wipe the AB buff instead of ArBar. It was mentioned that using AM instead of ArBar would allow for more aggressive rotations (AB spam) during cooldown phases of our rotation. So while the dps of using AB to clear it was lower, the extra dps gained from having the extra mana to burn during CDs would more than make up for it. This was my concept behind an Arcane/Frost Channeling spec. Lose a little bit during the standard rotation to (potentially) gain a lot during CD stacking.

Anomi · 02/11/09, 6:14 PM

I've been combing through these threads since the patch was released yesterday morning and I have a large migraine to show for it. Since asking which spec is best isn't going to provide any answers before raid tonight, I would just like to model it for my gear before I make a decision to spec. The significantly reduced use of ABr (if I'm reading Manly's rotations correctly) makes Arcane seem much more dull, so I'm leaning towards dropping it if Arcane has lost its DPS advantage. What are people using to model these changes tho? Rawr has no update and Magegraf hasn't worked for me since last spring.

Omnia · 02/11/09, 6:21 PM

Rawr does have an update if you like to compile your own C# source code :-)

Bladestrom · 02/11/09, 6:59 PM

i must confess I am still getting my head around this notation, so apologies in advance. What is the recognised notation for the following, and is it the best rotation outside spam (or indeed is this what is being described and I am misreading)

scenario: MBAR proc on 3rd stack

AB AB AB [MBAR proc- ABAR has just been cast and is about to consume full ab stack] ABAR MBAR ABAR AB AB AB...

Assertions:

ABAR is > dps than AB so use if ab is 0 stacked
if MBAR proc on AB1 & 2 then fire missiles after 3rd AB. If it proc after 3rd AB then you have already used up 3 stack on queued ABAR so cast MBAR after the ABAR as you may lose an MBAR proc if you crank back up to 3 AB again before consuming the active MBAR buff.