I came across an article on WoWInsider.com that got me interested in an issue that I believe was talked about a bit early on after the big pre-wrath arcane changes but died out. This is with the possibility of using Incanter's Absorption in a PvE setting. I know this was easily dismissed in the past because it was pretty impractical, but with the increase in raid damage in Ulduar along with the lesser cooldown with Power Word: Shield, I think this talent is worth a second look. Anyways, here's the article I'm referring to:
It is such an amazing talent if you could actually get a priest to shield you on a regular basis.
However, i do not feel that it is practical. If the raid is taking aoe damage, there are healers specifically keeping the raid up from that damage. there is generally spike damage as well, which could be on the tank or another raid member. Trying to convince a priest to shield you, when you are going to get regular raid heals and that shield could save another raid members life...is hard, and not practical until the entire encounter is trivial.
Once the encounter is trivial, getting that dps boost really isn't worth the effort in my opinion.
Assuming all damage was shielded I would get the following numbers
Ignis: 6404 shielded damage every 10 seconds
Kolgarn: 6777 shielded damage every 10 seconds
Let's simplify and go with 6000 shielded damage every 10 seconds. That would be 900 spellpower for 10 seconds.
Since you can only have a shield once every 15 seconds that shield would have to absorb 9000 damage.
For the sake of simplicity we can assume that PW:S absorb = 10% spellpower gained over 10 seconds.
According to http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t54618-w...craft_dargons/ the (talented) shield scales 112.8% with spell power.
A priest with 2000 spell power could shield you for 4486 damage. If we multiply that with our previously mentioned 10% we would get ~450 spellpower.
But this 450 is only the theoretical maximum in a perfect world.
Edit:
I just found out you can already enter those values in RAWR.
In the Options -> Survivability tab you can enter how much dps you receive and how much absorption per second you have.
The talent's value will be calculated accordingly. With 400 Absorption per second and > 400 incoming dps the talent ranks somewhere between "Spell Power" and "Torment the Weak". Not bad at all.
Anyone have any tips for Arcane on General Vezax? We did a few attempts and I toyed with a few rotations, from Barrage spam while running looking for shadowcrashes to AB/ABr rotations to wanding. I feel Icy Veins is wasted within a Shadowcrash since that pushes my haste beyond the GCD. You never really realize how fast you can burn through 23k mana until you can't regen any at all. Do successful Arcane mages save mana/cooldowns for the Shadowcrashes and use a very low DPS rotation meanwhile? Any pointers would be appreciated.
Anyone have any tips for Arcane on General Vezax? We did a few attempts and I toyed with a few rotations, from Barrage spam while running looking for shadowcrashes to AB/ABr rotations to wanding. I feel Icy Veins is wasted within a Shadowcrash since that pushes my haste beyond the GCD. You never really realize how fast you can burn through 23k mana until you can't regen any at all. Do successful Arcane mages save mana/cooldowns for the Shadowcrashes and use a very low DPS rotation meanwhile? Any pointers would be appreciated.
Icy Veins pushes AB spelltime under the GCD yes, but your AM will blow out with speed of light.
Skilling 2 points into range. Wanding everytime while there is no shadowcrash in range of the boss and casting NO spell without the shadowcrashbuff. (except for blink. If your the first one in a shadowcrash, the odds are good that there is no shadowcrash coming to make you move and loose damage, which is REALLY hurtful with AP started)
I kinda use the normal arcane rotation. first shadowcrash: (the best of all, cause u stand right in there after it spawns, u wont get such a long time in anotherone anymore) get your images out, start all cds and ABspam until procc. Right before your Images disappear use your invis -> after this no more threatproblems at all until he is dead. With no cds rdy, your rotation should always be -> AB3-AM
One of the only fights where i can actually use the healthstone. Normally i use the 2nd-3rd cloud with about 20% mana left and take the 6th stack while walking out of the cloud with healthstone already used. (Manashield can save your ass, if u get out to late with 7 stacks)
And dont forget to use your managem for sp boost.
If u play perfectly u will pull of 8-12k dps (including wanddmg) with ease and top the meters.
+ a small trick: If there is no shadowcrash in range of the boss, you can use your Mirrors while standing in the crash and get some extra damage done ;-)
Incanter's Absorption is also really nice with frost ward and fire ward. In fights like Flame Leviathan(when destroying turrents), Ignis, Razorscale, Hodir and Mimiron your frost/fire ward is also a damage boost and you gain more survivability.
If you skill frost warding you gain also mana by using fire/frost wards in these fights. At the end you can use the small glyphes of fire and frost ward to reflect some dmg.
Talents could be like that: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
These numbers aren't considering imp conc aura though. With imp conc, the pally is giving 50% coverage, so the 1 3 become the equivalent of 3 5. In a 25 man setting, there's no reason to have more than 3 in my eyes.
Good point. So, regarding Arcane Stability, now we have this data, with two hits during an arcane missiles channel:
Pushback reduced by
Missiles successfully cast
Arcane Stability/Concentration Aura
0%
2
0/5 no conc
20%
3
1/5
35%
3
0/5 conc
40%
3
2/5
50%
3
0/5 imp conc
55%
3
1/5 conc
60%
4
3/5
70%
4
1/5 imp conc
75%
4
2/5 conc
80%
4
4/5
90%
4
2/5 imp conc
95%
4
3/5 conc
100%
5
5/5; 4/5 conc; 3/5 imp conc
To get 3 missiles off you'd need either 1pt with no conc or 0pts with conc.
To get 4 missiles off you'd need either 3pts with no conc, 2pts with conc, or 1pt with imp conc.
To get all 5 missiles off you'd need either 5pts with no conc, 4pts with conc, or 3pts with imp conc.
I currently have 2 points in Arcane Stability. Since my pally runs with imp conc, and I only care about getting four missiles off, I'll be taking a point out.
Here's the data for one hit during an arcane missiles channel:
i apologise in advance if i am pushing the subject off track a little bit with this question, but it is reguarding the Mage Armor/Molten Armor debate, i couldn't find any information on it in this thread, although it is becoming a somewhat unmanagable size now.
but the point i want to put forward is that the 5-7% odd crit that you are now gaining from molten armor, is it really that worthwhile compared to having the regen to be able to have an AB spamming session on a boss for when you want some serious dps.
if anyone has any helpful information to tests, personal opinions or pages where this has been revied before that'd be great
i apologise in advance if i am pushing the subject off track a little bit with this question, but it is reguarding the Mage Armor/Molten Armor debate, i couldn't find any information on it in this thread, although it is becoming a somewhat unmanagable size now.
but the point i want to put forward is that the 5-7% odd crit that you are now gaining from molten armor, is it really that worthwhile compared to having the regen to be able to have an AB spamming session on a boss for when you want some serious dps.
if anyone has any helpful information to tests, personal opinions or pages where this has been revied before that'd be great
thanks guys, JT
Given that my pre-3.1 arcane build included about 600 spirit and using mage armor, I was particularly surprised to see that in a 25-man raid setting I typically gain 10.5-11.5% crit from molten armor. It's recompense for the regen nerf (although I would like to see some theory/simulations done on the value of mage armor today). We all recall that molten has been and certainly remains the theoretical top choice for pure DPS.
i apologise in advance if i am pushing the subject off track a little bit with this question, but it is reguarding the Mage Armor/Molten Armor debate, i couldn't find any information on it in this thread, although it is becoming a somewhat unmanagable size now.
but the point i want to put forward is that the 5-7% odd crit that you are now gaining from molten armor, is it really that worthwhile compared to having the regen to be able to have an AB spamming session on a boss for when you want some serious dps.
if anyone has any helpful information to tests, personal opinions or pages where this has been revied before that'd be great
thanks guys, JT
Answer: Molten armor is always better than mage armor, adjust your rotation if you are going out of mana too quick. This fact needs to be added to the first post.
I would like to know by changing some of the talent points would it be good for Ulduar
1) change 2 points in acrane subtlety to 2 point stability - with conc aura - 4 hits
2) 1 point in attunement and 2 points in SOM - 7% extra for molten armor
3) 2 points in Incanter's Absorption - 2% mana replenish
4) change 2 points from ice shards to frost warding - mana replenish
and the rest of the points are the same. Rotation : AB3AM
How would this effect the dps and mana consuming??
This past week I have moved Ice Shards -> Warding and I love it. It has saved my life countless times, and dead dps = no dps. (and Arcane explosion is our best aoe for cleanup, short of a few boss fights I can think of)
The perk of getting your minor glyphs working and some mana regen is icing on the cake.
I am going to try and get incanters in my build, for more synergy, and I do run with Disc priests. (not to mention the legendary mace effect soon)
It is tough, with the Arcane tree bloat, to try and squeeze 3 points out. Still haven't settled on what to sac.
(Playing with Rawr to see what dps loss 1/2 Arcane Potency is)
It is tough, with the Arcane tree bloat, to try and squeeze 3 points out. Still haven't settled on what to sac.
You should use RAWR for that. Under the options add how much damage income you're expecting (something like 500 fire dps for example. Depends on the fight. Check your previous webstats for some basic guideline.) and how much shielding per seconds you can expect (Ward is 1900 + 80% sp divided by 30seconds. Plus other shields you receive from priests and paladins).
When you're looking at the talent dps values you will notice incanters moved up quite a bit.
And from there just decide for yourself which talents you should drop.
Student of the mind, Arcane Mind, Arcane Meditation, Arcane Barrage (isn't used in any rotations, but I would keep it for movement heavy fights) and Slow are good examples of relative low dps talents.
ive been curious about the rotation calculations ive seen. most say to build up three ab charges then use an abarr if you havent proc'd. ive been curious if its almost better to toss out a fireball or ffb instead to keep the 3 stack alive and attempt to proc the missles. both have the ability to proc that talent, infact so does the frostbolt. from screwing around, ive seen you can squeeze in 2 of any bolt before needing to use another ab (given you have moderate haste via the talent and what little bit is on tier gear).
i know i should probably just build a java applet to do the calculations myself, but im far too lazy. i just figured id point out they can proc missles and use a lot less mana in a keep alive rotation.
Korey, thank you for your breakdown of Arcane Missiles pushback. I've put that data into a table which I find much easier to read. It simply shows how many missiles to expect with a particular level of Arcane Stability.
Number of Arcane Missiles Cast When Taking Damage While Channeling Two hits -- numbers in parentheses are for single hits only
Arcane Stability
No Aura
Reg CA
Imp CA
0
2(3)
3(4)
3(4)
1
3(4)
3(4)
4
2
3(4)
4
4
3
4
4
5
4
4
5
5
5
5
5
5
The sweet spot for me (and I'd guess the majority of raiding Mages) is 3/5 Arcane Stability. Either I get Improved Concentration Aura or no Aura at all. If you rarely get hit more than once during channeling I can see Korey's case for only going 1/5 Arcane Stability; there are other dps-increasing talents available.
As an aside does anyone else wonder why we have both Arcane Stability and Arcane Instability in the talent tree?
I have followed this thread for a long time but it is the first time that I post.
Originally Posted by Elysianfield
I was under the impression that the Spark of Hope trinket had already been worked out to be less beneficial than Dying Curse proc several weeks ago? The arguments being that since AB3AM was nearly the same dps as AB3[MBAM or ABr], yet much more mana efficient, it'd be better to use the cheap rotation and a pure dps trinket rather than trying to reduce the cost of the expensive rotation.
The most expensive and best rotation is ab spamming using mbarr when procc, I use this rotation when the battle begins to use my cooldowns as soon as possible. I've 5ks dps, sometimes 6ks dps.
With spark trincket and a huge mana regeneration ab spamming becomes a possibility.
In these days I am testing incanter's absorption, In raid I ve 22ks of health, 5% is 1k of spell power maximum, uuuuuh, great times for arcane mages.
ive been curious about the rotation calculations ive seen. most say to build up three ab charges then use an abarr if you havent proc'd.
Actually I'm pretty sure they all say to use ABx3 AM.
ive been curious if its almost better to toss out a fireball or ffb instead to keep the 3 stack alive and attempt to proc the missles. both have the ability to proc that talent, infact so does the frostbolt. from screwing around, ive seen you can squeeze in 2 of any bolt before needing to use another ab (given you have moderate haste via the talent and what little bit is on tier gear).
If it's worth baiting for the proc by casting those spells, then surely you would be chaincasting them instead of using them to keep the AB debuff on 3 stacks?
There was a list in this post on page 78: The Arcane thread which just required some slight regemming. I'm not sure if it is final though, as some of the hard mode loot might still be missing.
according to that table, you use less mana and do more dps finishing a 3 stack with abarr over a nonproc missile and start to lose mana like crazy if you try keeping a 3 stack alive with more blasts. i was merely curious about a keep alive using bolts between blasts (after a 3 stack has occured) to reduce this mana consumption since the odds of it taking 6 casts to proc missles is rather low at best.
If it's worth baiting for the proc by casting those spells, then surely you would be chaincasting them instead of using them to keep the AB debuff on 3 stacks?
I am not sure he took into account the problem of time delay between starting the next cast and noticing the proc, which means that you have to decide after AB,AB what to do, namely either AB, ABar or AB, MBAM. In a perfect world, where you know in advance that the third AB will proc MB and you can then use it at once the table is reasonable. In the real world, after finishing your stack with AB, ABar, you have a 48.8% chance to loose a proc, just by having to restack AB again, not counting the proc-chance of ABar itself.
Depending on your lag and reaction time, you may find it better to run AB3AM and AB(x>3,Spam)MBAM during cooldowns.
edit: infact, i just pulled up the data proving so. Tachyon - Tales of a Frost Mage
These tables treat Missiles barrage as a separate possible rotation when it is folly to do so. On the first page of this thread there is a table with the various DPMs and DPSs of different rotations, with missiles barrage included, and it proves that using AM with no proc is roughly a 200 DPS loss for nearly double the DPM of using Arcane barrage, both because of the fact that AM is a long cast and that Missiles barrage procs will be consumed immediately. Don't post misinformation, please.
There was a list in this post on page 78: The Arcane thread which just required some slight regemming. I'm not sure if it is final though, as some of the hard mode loot might still be missing.
I may be off about this but Rawr is telling me I pretty much need to keep my T7 2 piece bonus, that no combo of non-set or T8 4 piece is anywhere near that 2 piece bonus.
according to that table, you use less mana and do more dps finishing a 3 stack with abarr over a nonproc missile and start to lose mana like crazy if you try keeping a 3 stack alive with more blasts.
Not sure what you are trying to prove here. Even the table you quoted says AB3 ABar is 355MPS compared to AB3 AM's 292 MPS, for a gain of merely 120 DPS. Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by ABx3 AM; the latest version of Rawr tells me to cast ABx3 then AM regardless of procs. You could easily download it yourself and use the Compute Optimal Arcane Cycles function to see what your rotations should be, and their DPS/MPS.
i was merely curious about a keep alive using bolts between blasts (after a 3 stack has occured) to reduce this mana consumption since the odds of it taking 6 casts to proc missles is rather low at best.
ive been curious about the rotation calculations ive seen. most say to build up three ab charges then use an abarr if you havent proc'd. ive been curious if its almost better to toss out a fireball or ffb instead to keep the 3 stack alive and attempt to proc the missles. both have the ability to proc that talent, infact so does the frostbolt. from screwing around, ive seen you can squeeze in 2 of any bolt before needing to use another ab (given you have moderate haste via the talent and what little bit is on tier gear).
i know i should probably just build a java applet to do the calculations myself, but im far too lazy. i just figured id point out they can proc missles and use a lot less mana in a keep alive rotation.
I experimented briefly with an arcane/frost build to do just this after some crude math showed it could possibly be superior to a typical ABx3 AM rotation by a small margin. It turned out to be very clumsy, and executing it properly while paying attention to the fight was difficult. The results were pretty poor. (iirc, the break even point for dps was in the 3-4 frostbolt range, and at that point you might as well have just cast AM and started another rotation)
04/27/09, 10:03 AM
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