according to that table, you use less mana and do more dps finishing a 3 stack with abarr over a nonproc missile and start to lose mana like crazy if you try keeping a 3 stack alive with more blasts. i was merely curious about a keep alive using bolts between blasts (after a 3 stack has occured) to reduce this mana consumption since the odds of it taking 6 casts to proc missles is rather low at best.
Read the first post of this thread. The guy who provided the numbers for the rotations is also the guy who works on the mage model of Rawr.
AB3 [mbarr] or abar (hereon out referred to as AB3Abar) and AB3AM are pretty close. So close that at certain latencies or above, AB3AM actually overtakes AB3Abar. For me, over 150ms and Rawr drops the AB3Abar recommendation completely. So it's not hard to understand why a lot of people choose AB3AM over AB3Abar:
It's higher dps depending on your latency, if not equal or only marginally lower.
It's higher dpm and lower mps. The cycle takes longer so you run out of mana slower, for about the same dps.
You "waste" less Mbar procs. As someone already pointed out, you can only react to the first two ABs; if it procs on the third you'll have to wait until the next cycle to use it. AB3AM makes this problem irrelevant.
Anyways, no it's not better to keep three stacks alive by casting fireball or frostfire bolt.
I am considering removing 2 points in arcane stability, and placing them in student of the mind instead.
The pallies in my guild do not run concentration aura so I will be very susceptible to pushback.
If an arcane mage is having mana problems, the first thing that I have read here is to reduce your AB stacks right? So instead of AB3AM, maybe throw in some AB2AMs and try to balance it out so you end the fight with 0 mana, but never run out of mana while EVO is still CDing.
Here is my logic, and maybe you can guys tell me if it is flawed.
I am having mana problems already, slowing down my casts is not such a big deal since my mana will get spent slower. so if I have to deal with some pushback on AB but be able to stick with the AB3AM rotation, maybe I will be better off? The only loss of DPM without pushback prevention occurs during an AM cast, since I can lose some missiles. Also note during MBAM, the cast is quicker, there is less of a window for me to get hit during the AM cast, really it comes down to a lot of luck.
Does anyone else run with 2/3 or 3/3SOM?
If one is having mana problems, should you hold back from ABSPAM during AP? (I currently spam AB during AP or AP/IV until MBAM procs).
What consumables does everyone use? I've been using Potion of Wild Magic during IV/AP/Mana Gem/Hero (when I have them all alighned) should I use a mana pot instead, if it means being able to AB3AM more over AB2AM?
It's higher dps depending on your latency, if not equal or only marginally lower.
Careful there. AB3Abar3MBAM alone is always more dps than AB3AM. It's just that the mana savings of AB3AM let you cast more ABspam3MBAM's, making average dps higher than when using Abar (for latencies over ~60ms).
I ran into the same issues once my haste hit the same mark yours is. It is a great dps stat, but without perfect raid support it is very hard to maintain our Top 2 rotations at ~570 Haste. I ended up getting less-that-perfect replacement pieces from Naxx (due to bad luck/rng) and once my crit and hit went up (and haste down) my OOM moments leveled out.
Arcanes should be grouped with Resto Shamans etc to ensure good raid/mana support (mana-tide)
@ Marsui
Arcanes should be grouped with Resto Shamans etc to ensure good raid/mana support (mana-tide)
Ahh man, great point. I had been putting myself in a resto shaman's group for the hit for a while, then we got another raiding mage who was draenai so I had been putting myself in a group with him...plus mana was not as big of an issue. Time to remedy that at least. Hopefully it ends my problem.
Just got [Pandora's Plea] yesterday. Did a quick search and found very little discussion on this trinket. I will attempt to break down on what this trinket is actually worth to an Arcane Mage.
Assuming 850sp is in fact the intended proc (current actually proc is 751sp), the trinket adds the following stats:
108 Int to an Arcane Mages in raids = 108 * 1.15 (Arcane Mind) * 1.1 (Kings) = 136.6 actual Int.
136.6 Int = +2049.3 mana
136.6 Int = +.82% crit = +37.5 crit rating
136.6 Int = +20.5 sp through Mind Matery
136.6 Int = +25.6 mp5 through replenishment +~22.0 mp5 (11 while casting) through spirit regen (750 raid buffed spirit) +51.2 mp5 through evocation (assuming using on every CD)
The proc is a standard 45 ICD proc, assuming uptime of around 20% you have a normalized 170 sp for this proc.
So to add it all up, the worth of this trinket to an Arcane Mage in raids is:
+2049.3 mana
+37.5 crit rating
+87.8 mp5
+190.5 sp
or
assuming a 5 min fight where 2 evocation is used:
+6703.8 mana (111.7 mp5)
+37.5 crit rating
+190.5 sp
Did anyone actually try speccing into Incanter's Absorption for Ulduar (instead of hit talents for example)?
Does it provide a significant dps increase when a priest is shielding you?
P.S. I know the math, but I just want to know if it has been tested in a raid environment
Did anyone actually try speccing into Incanter's Absorption for Ulduar (instead of hit talents for example)?
Does it provide a significant dps increase when a priest is shielding you?
P.S. I know the math, but I just want to know if it has been tested in a raid environment
Normally the +SP i get caps out with only 2/3 into it i have a disc priest chain bubble me and i use fireward/frost ward on fights like mimiron/Hodir, for the most part on some encounters its useless, but its very helpful on the encounters that matter.
[Pandora's Plea] is #1 BIS for arc mage. I'd recommend you learn to use RAWR, it's a really great tool for answering questions like this. With my spec 57/3/11 and raid buffs the top trinkets according to RAWR are
Pandora's Plea - 340 dps
Scale of Fates - 315 dps
Illustration of the Dragon Soul - 271 dps
Embrace of the Spider - 249 dps
This is assuming you don't need any hit from your trinkets which is very likely the case for an arc mage.
Does anyone know when to give up 2pc Tier 7.5 as an Arcane Mage? The Mana Gem set bonus seems to outweigh the lackluster 4pc T8.5 or the stat upgrades from item lvl 226 pieces.
I was planning on keeping my helm and shoulders for the foreseeable future.
Does anyone know when to give up 2pc Tier 7.5 as an Arcane Mage? The Mana Gem set bonus seems to outweigh the lackluster 4pc T8.5 or the stat upgrades from item lvl 226 pieces.
I was planning on keeping my helm and shoulders for the foreseeable future.
Yeah from what I've seen there is no trade off in Ulduar for the godly T 7.5 2 piece bonus, nothing even comes close
Does anyone know when to give up 2pc Tier 7.5 as an Arcane Mage? The Mana Gem set bonus seems to outweigh the lackluster 4pc T8.5 or the stat upgrades from item lvl 226 pieces.
I was planning on keeping my helm and shoulders for the foreseeable future.
I was playing with Rawr and 4pcT8.5 outweights the 2pcT7.5. I think the 4 pieces bonus has been modeled with a 10% proc rate, when it currently seems to be 20%. It was giving me a difference of 50 in the DPS of a 5 minutes fight in favor for the 4pT8.
So, after sometime on Ulduar... what do you all still think about 10% spirit from talents (assuming glyphed molten armor up).
I'm thinking on dropping 6 yards on range and %1hit to get it.
So, after sometime on Ulduar... what do you all still think about 10% spirit from talents (assuming glyphed molten armor up).
I'm thinking on dropping 6 yards on range and %1hit to get it.
Rawr shows SotM to be a little over 13 DPS increase for me per point, and I imagine this wouldn't change so much for others even though my gear is not good. Fropping a point in Arcane Focus (which also decreases mana costs, not just a 1% hit) may be worthwhile, but 13 DPS for 3 yards doesn't sound like a very good tradeoff. Extra range might not appear useful to DPS on paper but it's an intangible. Especially since Arcane range is short as it is, 6 yards makes a lot of difference. Just try a Heigan fight without 2/2 Magic Attunement and you'll see what I mean.
Rawr shows SotM to be a little over 13 DPS increase for me per point
But when you are looking for places to drop pure filler points the main decision is based on what we know as "intangible points" and they will vary from player to player. I personally have 3/3 SotM, not because it's a "must have" talent but simply a case of I have points to spare and placing them there is still a dps increase, even if Rawr states that it's only 17 DPS per point for me.
The Mage theme song.
<+icesurfer> this is the fucking security industry; if you want ethics, join the Red Cross
Does anyone know when to give up 2pc Tier 7.5 as an Arcane Mage? The Mana Gem set bonus seems to outweigh the lackluster 4pc T8.5 or the stat upgrades from item lvl 226 pieces.
I was planning on keeping my helm and shoulders for the foreseeable future.
Yeah, I plan to keep two T7.5 as well. The one issue is that the T8.5 Shoulders are inherently better than the T7.5. It seems more logical to try and hold onto the T7.5 Helm and Legs (for the haste). That also allows you to try and grab the T8.5 Gloves and Shoulders (which also both have haste). Unless I'm missing something, that would seem to be the most ideal way to get both two piece set bonuses. Then, in the chest slot, you could grab the Umbral Brute Robe or the Iron Council Raiment.
Yeah, I plan to keep two T7.5 as well. The one issue is that the T8.5 Shoulders are inherently better than the T7.5. It seems more logical to try and hold onto the T7.5 Helm and Legs (for the haste). That also allows you to try and grab the T8.5 Gloves and Shoulders (which also both have haste). Unless I'm missing something, that would seem to be the most ideal way to get both two piece set bonuses. Then, in the chest slot, you could grab the Umbral Brute Robe or the Iron Council Raiment.
Are you sure about that? Usually, the DPS weight of your pants is much greater than your gloves, so not upgrading your pants would be a greater DPS loss than not upgrading your gloves.
Edit: Kavan actually mentioned that the 4pT8 bonus is slightly overvalued. I'll be waiting for an update over the proc on the 4pT8 bonus (currently at 10%, should be around 20%) and over factoring the Missile Barrage duration not being refreshed by the 4pT8 bonus as well. The 50 DPS advantage to T8 from Rawr I mentioned earlier will change.
Are you sure about that? Usually, the DPS weight of your pants is much greater than your gloves, so not upgrading your pants would be a greater DPS loss than not upgrading your gloves.
You're right in general, but it's not absolute value. Haste is roughly twice as useful for us than Crit. The T7.5 Gloves have Crit and Hit, while the T7.5 Legs have Haste and Hit. Their T8.5 counterparts don't match the same stats -- the new gloves have Haste and Hit the new pants have Crit and Hit (the Crit and Haste swap).
T7.5 Gloves: (Red) 69 SP, 53 Crit, 38 hit
T78.5 Gloves: (Yellow) 100 SP, 47 Haste, 60 Hit
As an Arcane mage, if you had the choice of upgrading one or the other, it's a no-brainer. Give me the new gloves every time. It has a bigger SP increase than the legs, a near identical Hit increase and a trade off of Crit for Haste instead of vice versa. If that wasn't enough, I also avoid having to absorb another blue socket on the new T8 Legs.
I have no intention of ever equipping the new legs.
No, the best choice is to run the Rawr optimizer. For example, my results: T7 Head and Legs, T8 Shoulder and Hands, Robes of the Umbral Brute. Even with it supposedly overvaluing the 4pc T8!
I used Rawr to estimate the score, and you are correct, Valorous Frostfire Circlet and Valorous Frostfire Leggings give better results so far in Rawr 2.2.1.
So, offset legs, T7 chest and shoulders, T8 head and gloves seems to be the best choice?
Leggings of lost love notably the 1st option for offset legs.
No, the T8.5 Chest is not ideal for Arcane either. You're much better off with Umbral Brute or Raiment of Iron Council. My current BiS list includes T7 Helm and Legs, T8 Gloves and Shoulders, and offset Chest. The only one of the four set pieces that doesn't have Haste is the T7 Helm, but at least that has Crit, as opposed to the T8 Helm that only has Hit and no Crit or Haste. And what's even more important, you'll be able to wear a Robe instead of that stupid Tunic, haha. :P
The next version of Rawr will likely give you different results, since the current official release (2.2.1.0) still values the 4pc proc at 10%. With the updated 20% proc model, Rawr does prefer 4pcT8.5 for Arcane.
I used Rawr to estimate the score, and you are correct, Valorous Frostfire Circlet and Valorous Frostfire Leggings give better results so far in Rawr 2.2.1.
Valorous Frostfire Circlet
Pendant of Fiery Havoc
Conqueror's Kirin Tor Shoulderpads
Robes of the Umbral Brute
Sash of Ancient Power
Valorous Frostfire Leggings
Boots of Fiery Resolution
Unsullied Cuffs
Conqueror's Kirin Tor Gauntlets
Signet of Manifested Pain
Pyrelight Circle
Pandora's Plea
Scale of Fates
Pennant Cloak
Staff of Endless Winter
Scepter of Lost Souls
I've been waiting for an updated version of Rawr, but based on the pen+paper math I did, that list is very similar to what I created (I have it written down at home though -- at work now). The major difference is that as Alliance, I can get by with less Hit. I also think I'm going to avoid the Staff of Endless Winter -- everyone in my guild is going to want it, so I think it might be easier to just go for the Soulscribe and keep my Surplus Limb. I haven't done all the math, but my guess is that the DPS won't be too drastic of a difference, especially when you consider the Hit I'll be able to retain in the slot, thus able to avoid in other spots.
04/29/09, 5:14 AM
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