if you just chain your MB if 4pc procs you are just loosing DPS. After all, even though you have the risk it would proc anyways, more than often I've seen myself not proccing.
So, it is a garanted AB3MB for your next rotation (or AB2MB if you don't have time to rebuild it).
the thing you have to consider when comparing the t8 proc and decide to rampup or not is that :
* MBAM is the best DPS you can get from a single spell (according to rawr MBAM 7237 dps ABSpam3C is 6167 dps)
* AB rampup will have an high probability of wasting MB procs (thus the t8 bonus)
* the MBAM won't refresh itself so if you lose time ramping up AB you can probably lose another proc of the t8.
What i mean is MBAM proc will last 15 seconds, with my haste i cast 3xAB in nearly 1,8x3 seconds, and MBAM will cast in 1,8 seconds, so if i stand still and we consider NO wasted procs we will have
For our calculation we hypotize that when the first MBAM proc we are at AB3
0,0 MBAM procs, we start the normal MBAM and it procs
1,8 MBAM casts ends and we decide to ramp up for AB(3), we cast AB(0)
3,6 AB (1)
5,4 AB (2),
7,2 AB3 is up, we can fire MBAM
9,0 MBAM cast ends and we still have the proc up with no refreshes, we start again the ramp-up, so AB(0)
10,8 AB(1)
12,6 AB(2),
14,4 AB3 is up, we can fire MBAM
so we casted (before the initial MBAM that everyone is going to shoot) 2*ABSpam3AB for nearly 12400dps for 370mps
if we instead ignore the rampup and we just chain 2x MBAM with 0 AB we get 7237*2=14500dps for 254mps and we spent 3,6 seconds in that, the remaining 11,4 seconds we can chain another MBAM (if the procs remains) or ramp up AM3AM. The best situation would be chained MBAM untill the 15 seconds, which happened to me only once, the realistic situation is that you go into the normal cycle AM3AM or spam depending if you are in a burst situation.
AB3AM takes 8,4seconds with 3310dps and 192 mps, for a total of 12 seconds at higher dps and lower MPS compared to the ramp up.
TL;DR : if my calculations are right, just cast MBAM untill you have the procs
EDIT : doh... beated ... delete if you consider the math is not worthwile
if you just chain your MB if 4pc procs you are just loosing DPS.
You're not.
There was a lot of discussion about this many pages back stating MBAB is the highest dps spell an Arcane Mage has. If you use the 4pc proc straight away it is still a dps increase over the average dps you will be pushing out. Sure, it's less dps than a ABx3MBAM stack (that goes without saying) but you WILL waste many of the 4pc procs given MBAM has around a 50% chance of proccing when stacking ABx3.
If you use your 4pc as soon as it procs you will do more than your average dps as an arcane Mage. If you save it for a ABx3 stack you're not guaranteed this. It comes down to luck as to whether you get a natural MBAM proc anyway. On top of this, in casting MBAM less frequently you decrease the number of 4pc procs you actually get in the first place.
Casting MBAM right away after the proc without ramping it up is a DPS increase 48.8% of the time (chances that one of the ABs in AB3 will proc MBAM again) and DPS loss 51.2% of the time.
Waiting to cast MBAM proc after 3 stack AB is a DPS increase 51.2% of the time (chances that none of the ABs in AB3 will proc MBAM again) and DPS loss 48.8% of the time.
Thus, in order to decide whether or not to cast MBAM proc right away you just need to look at the relative DPS increases/losses corresponding to these probabilities. As far as I remember from some old napkin math I did a couple weeks ago, the difference is marginal, i.e., it doesn't really matter that much whether or not to save your MBAMs for triple stacks after T8 procs.
It has been stated in this thread that the best use of the 4xt8.5 proc is to chain cast Missile Barrage Arcane Missiles until it runs out. If you start restacking Arcane Blast the chances are you're going to lose the 4xt8.5 proc to a new Missile Barrage proc anyway.
This is not correct. Yes the ABSpam03MBAM (chain casting MBAM on proc) has higher dps than ABSpam3MBAM. But you should only use it if you can use ABSpam3MBAM for the rest of the fight, which is highly unlikely. Most confuse that to imply something about AB3AM0MBAM, it does not. That rotation is not present in the optimal lineup.
The only rotation we're possibly missing is AB3AM with using MBAM sooner than 3 stack if the proc is just about to expire. I'm suspecting this could be more dps than straight AB3AM or to at least show up in optimal lineup. The comput e optimal cycles supports answering this question, but it requires some modifications in code. Currently the computation is restricted not to make cast decisions based on remaining time on the proc. This restriction is arbitrary in order to limit the computation time. The time for the current algorithm however is exponential in number of states and it would not be practical to do this considering how long it already takes. It would however be definitely possible to add this specific cycle into the mix and see if it improves the optimal lineup.
I've been looking into ways to encode this problem in a more efficient manner. The most promising way so far seemed to be encoding the problem as a bilinear-fractional optimization problem. I guess some off the shelf solver should be able to solve this, but linking it against Rawr would most likely not be used for general releases and I don't currently have enough time to write a custom one myself.
I switched from Arcane to Fire several weeks ago b/c I had finally acquired enough hit gear to cap and didn't see any other way I could justify the DPS reduction relative to the FFB and FB mages in my raid group. While I'm loving the results, I do miss the fun and challenging play-style of Aracane, and was hoping that Bilzzard would make some changes in upcoming patch that might make it more competitive so I could switch back. But in reviewing the current PTR patch notes, it would appear the situation is only going to get worse. I'm interested to know if anyone with more theorycrafting expertise sees it differently.
Arcane Blast cost reduced by 12%
Could this allow for new Arcane rotations, possibly more aggressive use of AB spam and therefore increase overall Arcane DPS? How much?
Empowered Fire: Now also grants 100% chance to regain 2% base mana with each Ignite tick
Mana has never been an issue for me as fire in Ulduar, but just gives Fire yet another advantage, right?
T9x2, Converts an additional 15% of your spirit into critical strike rating when Molten Armor is active.
Everything i've read says each point of crit provides greater DPS return for Fire compared to Arcane, so this again seems to only widen the gap.
T9x4, Increases the critical strike chance of Fireball, Frostbolt, Frostfire Bolt, Arcane Missiles, and Arcane Blast spells 5%.
Again, crit yields more for Fire than Arcane, so widens the gap, no?
I switched from Arcane to Fire several weeks ago b/c I had finally acquired enough hit gear to cap and didn't see any other way I could justify the DPS reduction relative to the FFB and FB mages in my raid group. While I'm loving the results, I do miss the fun and challenging play-style of Aracane, and was hoping that Bilzzard would make some changes in upcoming patch that might make it more competitive so I could switch back. But in reviewing the current PTR patch notes, it would appear the situation is only going to get worse. I'm interested to know if anyone with more theorycrafting expertise sees it differently.
Unfortunately many of us feel your assumption barring further changes in 3.2 is correct and Arcane looks dead as a competitive raiding spec in 3.2.
I'm not as good at this as Manly but lets just say base Arcane Blast is ABx1,2,3 = 261mana,783mana,1566 mana - a 12% base cost reduction makes that 230mana,690mana,1380mana.
So for every 7-8 3-stack ABs you cast you would theoretically get a free xtra one over the current live scenario - something, but fairly underwhelming compared to the Fire tree changes.
BUT if you factor in the Replenishment nerf - my calculations are that the mana cost of ABx3 casts has now increased in a raid setting by about 0.08% (i.e. the Arcane Blast mana reduction does not fully compensate).
The T9 bonuses obviously favor Fire/FFB also as does the itemization (even moreso than tha T8), while the inexplicable T7 2-pc nerf further targets Arcane in PvE settings. The one offset for the 4pc T9 bonus is that it affects BOTH Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles while the Fireball and FFB changes wont affect HS-Pyro casts ... so theoretically the lower benefit of increased crit for Arcane is somewhat offset by the affect being applied to a larger percentage of our casts.
Romple: All of the bonuses are usually geared towards crit. Maybe we need an armor buff that granted haste, which works better for arcane and frost.
I believe either Manly or Murphrid suggested this on the official test boards a number of times - making Mage Armor convert Spirit to Haste - but I sense that there is regret in the Dev team over how Arcane/Frost optimize with totally different stats (and thus gear) than FFB/Fire and as result there are hesitant to reinforce this disparity by changing the armors right now.
Could this allow for new Arcane rotations, possibly more aggressive use of AB spam and therefore increase overall Arcane DPS? How much?
I believe it was stated by GC somewhere that this was direct compensation for the replenishment nerf in 3.2. It won't change arcane rotations much, if at all.
The factor that they never did touch on is that AM/Mbarr will stay the same cost. With a AB3AM rotation more is spent (per spell) on AM than AB3 / 3. Add in a large influx of Mbarr moments and it will be a net loss.
Hello,
I've read over most of this thread, and I haven't seen a good explanation of why Magic Absorption is passed for range, pushback protection, and slight manacost reduction.
I'm not looking for someone to hold my hand through my spec, but I would like to hear some sort of consensus on the usefulness of the extra 6 yards range in ulduar, vs 80 more resists. Or, if Magic Absorption is just bad, but the range isn't terribly important, is Incanter's Absorption worth maxing?
Further, what is the real loss of dropping a point or two from Arcane Focus, if I'm far far beyond my hit cap? One could trade a point or two from AF and possibly get 3 points in Arcane Stability for pushback immunity (given a holy pally with talent).
If you search the forums for "Flamethrowing", the fire range talent, you'll see a ton of arguments for/against the added range... It's situational in a lot of fights. It helps with fights like Hodir and Vezax same way speed enchants help you move into position faster in fights like Mimiron. If you don't need hit from Arcane Focus then you don't need hit. Although if you have that much hit you'd probably be seeing better results looking into FFB or FB/TTW specs.
I'm not looking for someone to hold my hand through my spec, but I would like to hear some sort of consensus on the usefulness of the extra 6 yards range in ulduar, vs 80 more resists. Or, if Magic Absorption is just bad, but the range isn't terribly important, is Incanter's Absorption worth maxing?
Magic Absorption is simply too good to skip - when you do encounters with heavy, unavoidable raid damage - for three reasons:
1 - The talent itself is extremely useful in many situations. (It could be reworded to say something like, "Reduces all magic damage you take by 15%".)
2 - It has a low opportunity cost (only 2 points), is low in the talent tree, and is easy to pickup. (You can easily shuffle 1-2 points from clearcasting or drop Student of the Mind to get it)
3 - It's available to multiple spec types (most importantly fire, commonly regarded as the highest DPS spec).
Magic Absorption is a very good 2-point talent, for those reasons combined.
People need to move away from a "this is the spec I play for the week" approach and shift to a "this is the personally tailored spec I use just for this encounter" approach. Especially for hardmodes.
The merits of talents like MA/Flamethrowing/pushback prevention vary per encounter, so its best to try not to make one spec fit all. Ask some of the mages in top guilds what spec they used when learning hardmodes - and they will give you a detailed list, broken down on a per fight basis. The reply won't be, "Oh I used X spec because I felt it was good enough at every fight and saved me having to respec".
Is there an arcane best in slot thread somewhere i'm missing? Also while knowing haste is > crit as arcane, how much haste do you really want to aim for in a practical gear set?
Hello,
I've read over most of this thread, and I haven't seen a good explanation of why Magic Absorption is passed for range, pushback protection, and slight manacost reduction.
I'm not looking for someone to hold my hand through my spec, but I would like to hear some sort of consensus on the usefulness of the extra 6 yards range in ulduar, vs 80 more resists. Or, if Magic Absorption is just bad, but the range isn't terribly important, is Incanter's Absorption worth maxing?
Further, what is the real loss of dropping a point or two from Arcane Focus, if I'm far far beyond my hit cap? One could trade a point or two from AF and possibly get 3 points in Arcane Stability for pushback immunity (given a holy pally with talent).
Thanks in advance for any input.
I have found the extra six yards to be a must have in Ulduar. In some situations you need to be 10 yards from other players and the extra range allows for flexibility. There are also a number of scenarios where you need to be in a stationary buff, if the boss is kited or moved away from that buff your DPS could drop dramatically. For me the bottom line is that I don't think any talents are going to make up for the DPS loss of being out of range or the safety and flexibility of where I am going to cast from.
Magic absorption isn't "bad" in my opinion, there just are not enough points available to pick it up. Your healers should be able to keep you up and you can iceblock if things get bad. Also, you can negate a good amount of fire and frost damage by using your wards, as well as getting mana back. Incanter's aborption will benefit tremendously from this, priest shileds, and spellstolen shields. Personally I have it at max because it can be difficult to get to the 5% health cap of spelldamage and the extra points generally mean that I will have a higher average spellpower from the talent. I don't find any of the other talents to outweigh the benefit of three points in the talent.
I do not have any points in Arcane Focus as hit can be acquired through items or buffs, while the many other talents available are too good to pass up. (Always be hit capped and adjust your gear to the raid composition or fight is my motto.) I like the 3 points in Arcane Stability because of the number of fights with spell interruption and my views on Arcane Focus.
while knowing haste is > crit as arcane, how much haste do you really want to aim for in a practical gear set?
I remember reading somewhere that the soft cap for haste is a 1.0 sec cast for AB . . not sure exactly how much haste that is. Most folks go for a cast time between 1.8 and 2.2. I've got 530 haste and I'm sitting at a 2.0 sec cast time which seems fine.
I remember reading somewhere that the soft cap for haste is a 1.0 sec cast for AB . . not sure exactly how much haste that is. Most folks go for a cast time between 1.8 and 2.2. I've got 530 haste and I'm sitting at a 2.0 sec cast time which seems fine.
As awesome as 1 second arcane blasts sound... seems like at that point it'd simply run you out of mana in 20 seconds =p Why the question is more where the practical/optimal point of haste is, not the fastest possible.
I remember reading somewhere that the soft cap for haste is a 1.0 sec cast for AB . . not sure exactly how much haste that is. Most folks go for a cast time between 1.8 and 2.2. I've got 530 haste and I'm sitting at a 2.0 sec cast time which seems fine.
1.0 seconds is the hard cap for all spells. You can only reduce the global cooldown to 1.0 seconds and your spell casttime can only be reduced down to a minimum of a GCD. For arcane, fully raidbuffed (5% shaman haste, 3% ret haste, 6% netherwind presence), you are going to see a drop in the contribution from haste starting around 1000 haste due to GCDs no longer benefiting from haste (although your non-instant spells will still benefit).
Is the hard-cap not without personal %modifiers? I was under the impression that IV can get you below the cap, at least if I am to believe Quartz.
There is no cap on the casting time of your spells, but since the GCD caps at 1 second, you have to wait at least that long after casting before you can cast the next one. For example, if you have enough haste that Arcane Blast takes 0.8 seconds to cast, after the Arcane Blast finishes you have to wait 0.2 seconds before you can cast another spell because of the GCD.
Originally Posted by Crowl
If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.
Is the hard-cap not without personal %modifiers? I was under the impression that IV can get you below the cap, at least if I am to believe Quartz.
I didn't include external or personal % on-use modifiers due to their less-than 100% uptime. I wouldn't weave icy veins around preventing reaching the arcane barrage cap due to the fact that you're probably only going to be casting two or at most three arcane barrages during the hasted period.
I have made my dual spec/second spec arcane. I have done what I thought what I should, and I am trying the recommended spell rotation (AB, AB, AB, Arc Missles (or the proc if it happens)). rinse, repeat, but I still can't get over 2200 DPS on the heroic dummy in OGR. I am using the marcos below:
The only reason why a warlock would spec demo for endgame is for the demonic pact buff to increase raid dps. Other than that pretty gem I can't think of a single reason why one would ever choose demo over affliction or destro at this point.
That was exactly my point. It's very hard to come up with compelling niches for where a warlock would think "I really want to be Demo in this situation." But I'd argue the same thing exists between Affliction and Destro. Earlier in LK Affliction "won." Now things have shifted back to Destro.
Again, this is not a lock specific problem. For awhile Arcane felt like a better spec for high-movement fights, of which there were many. Now depending on who you talk to, Arcane just flat out "loses" to Fire. The suggestions players tend to make involve the constant tweaking of spell damage, coefficients or talents up or down until everything is within 1% (or whatever) again. I just don't know how realistic that is or if there's a better way to do it.
So blizzard is aware of the problem that arcane is now behind fire, even in movement fights. Sounds to me that arcane may get a buff, or fire will get nerfed (obviously not if u read the ptr notes für 3.2)
So blizzard is aware of the problem that arcane is now behind fire, even in movement fights. Sounds to me that arcane may get a buff, or fire will get nerfed (obviously not if u read the ptr notes für 3.2)
I'm not sure if I agree with that analysis. When he says "Depending on who you talk to" it kind of implies that there's some debate on the issue and it's not universally agreed. He could be saying that "some people think arcane flat out loses to fire, but some people don't think that's true." In which case, he would conclude that Arcane is not in need of any help. Personally, I'm curious who he's talking to that doesn't think Arcane flat-out loses to fire.
07/08/09, 9:24 AM
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