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Old 03/10/09, 11:15 AM   #601
Medusa
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
I think the most important statement is, that for most of the encounter, a early heroism is a win (exclude fights like Maexxna, Malygos etc). Beyond most of the named advantages, there are some more for the 'casual' ones:
  • No explicit cooldown math for every fight - just use cooldowns after the first stacking with Lust at everyones choice. It simplified the cooldown management for most of us.
  • Lower mortality - a dead DPS Player for a late Lust will screw up all other (possible) advantages

With this in mind, there is one more question: when to use combustion? I guess its best to use in 35%-0%, indifferent when Bloodlust is casted (beside, of course, the encounter allow you to cast it twice or more often).

So, use early BL and enjoy. As an Arcane Mage it was Hell to time Cooldown with late Heroism / different encounter, that was the main reason i swiched to FB.

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Old 03/10/09, 11:18 AM   #602
Pheroz
Piston Honda
 
Troll Mage
 
Malfurion
Combustion scales with +damage modifiers, and does not scale in any way with +haste modifiers. It benefits from molten fury, so you want to use it then.

And we're drifting really far from the point of this thread.

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Old 03/10/09, 3:25 PM   #603
Chillchaos
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by Pheroz View Post
...and does not scale in any way with +haste modifiers.
I don't think I can totally agree here, since the CD starts ticking as soon as you make your 3th crit.
So with that in mind, the faster you get those, hopefully consequetive, crits off, the sooner you're able to use it again.
Which obviously can only have the potential of critting more, "can" and "potential" being the keywords here.
I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, but when discussing min-maxing...

Originally Posted by Pheroz View Post
And we're drifting really far from the point of this thread.
On the other hand, I'm sure I can agree on that though...

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Old 03/10/09, 3:27 PM   #604
deadlyice
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Moon Guard
3.1 new numbers are out on simcraft, looking dire for mage dps at the moment. weve fallen into hybrid range.

SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code

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Old 03/10/09, 3:49 PM   #605
Thegoodman
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Daggerspine
Originally Posted by deadlyice View Post
3.1 new numbers are out on simcraft, looking dire for mage dps at the moment. weve fallen into hybrid range.

SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code
Historically, how have these numbers compared to actual outcomes?

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Old 03/10/09, 3:49 PM   #606
elluminea
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Mage
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by deadlyice View Post
3.1 new numbers are out on simcraft, looking dire for mage dps at the moment. weve fallen into hybrid range.

SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code
Mage changes are still not out like the other classes have seen, I'm sure Blizzard will have some ways of closing the gap, since it's pretty obvious some of the numbers shown are not tuned correctly at all. Cats will have to be subdued given the change to their bleeds, that rogue spec that's doing 1000dps more than any other in the game is going to get hit, and hunters are in basically the same "dire" position as mages.

In closing: something about chickens and hatching and all that.

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Old 03/10/09, 3:54 PM   #607
 nathanbp
Great Tiger
 
Gnome Mage
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by deadlyice View Post
3.1 new numbers are out on simcraft, looking dire for mage dps at the moment. weve fallen into hybrid range.

SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code
Hardly a point in despairing before they release the mage changes.

Why is the 57/3/11 mage using Mage Armor instead of Molten? Also, you could try adding the Living Bomb glyph for deep fire and see what that does, although you'll have to make some guesses as to how it works.

Originally Posted by Crowl View Post
If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.

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Old 03/10/09, 3:57 PM   #608
Omnia
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by deadlyice View Post
3.1 new numbers are out on simcraft, looking dire for mage dps at the moment. weve fallen into hybrid range.

SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code
Apologies if I missed a post regarding this, but how is LIVE_57_3_11 5892dps, and PTR_57_3_11 5649dps? Are there Arcane nerfs in 3.1 that would cause a 4% dps drop?

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Old 03/10/09, 3:59 PM   #609
dedmonwakeen
Bald Bull
 
dedmonwakeen
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by elluminea View Post
Mage changes are still not out like the other classes have seen, I'm sure Blizzard will have some ways of closing the gap, since it's pretty obvious some of the numbers shown are not tuned correctly at all. Cats will have to be subdued given the change to their bleeds, that rogue spec that's doing 1000dps more than any other in the game is going to get hit, and hunters are in basically the same "dire" position as mages.

In closing: something about chickens and hatching and all that.
Kitty DPS actually went up over 7k after I fixed a gcd-related bug in Cat Form......

Arcane appears much more mana-starved in 3.1...... Unlike other classes who also had their "while-casting" talents increased, Mages cap out at 100% so they cannot fully recover from the 40% drop. Since the SimulationCraft Arcane AI really isn't all that clever in mana-starved scenarios it may be misrepresenting the spec.


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Old 03/10/09, 4:08 PM   #610
Enthorn
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Mage
 
Dunemaul
What 40% drop in mana regeneration are you referring to? Someone worked out the numbers and the in-combat regen is exactly the same. They increased the in-combat but decreased the out of combat. For mages it should make no difference, since mages were never out of combat .

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Old 03/10/09, 4:09 PM   #611
Omnia
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Tichondrius
The mana consumption charts actually look similar between Live and PTR simulations. But I still would not trust these numbers:

Mage_T8_57_03_11
10955 arcane_missiles
6799 arcane_barrage
4913 arcane_blast

Mage_T7_57_03_11
11211 arcane_missiles
7272 arcane_barrage
5060 arcane_blast

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Old 03/10/09, 4:24 PM   #612
Thegoodman
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Daggerspine
Originally Posted by Enthorn View Post
What 40% drop in mana regeneration are you referring to? Someone worked out the numbers and the in-combat regen is exactly the same. They increased the in-combat but decreased the out of combat. For mages it should make no difference, since mages were never out of combat .
Well, it is more complicated than this. I'll use some arbitrary numbers for simplicity sake.

Pre 3.1: Arcane Meditation was 30% regen for 100 mp5. Mage Armor was 30% regen for 100 mp5. Mage Armor Glyph was 20% regen for 66 mp5 for a total of 266 mp5.
Post 3.1: Arcane Meditation is 50% regen for 100 mp5. Mage Armor is 50% regen for 200 mp5. We are now regen capped at 200 mp5.

Total loss of 66 mp5.

This change only effects those who were using the Mage Armor glyph (which I understand to be the minority since it was understood to be a dps loss overall).

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Old 03/10/09, 4:39 PM   #613
dedmonwakeen
Bald Bull
 
dedmonwakeen
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Omnia View Post
Apologies if I missed a post regarding this, but how is LIVE_57_3_11 5892dps, and PTR_57_3_11 5649dps? Are there Arcane nerfs in 3.1 that would cause a 4% dps drop?
Improved Scorch / Winters Chill drops spell crit by 5% across the board.
Slightly offset by Blood Frenzy / Savage Combat changes.

Originally Posted by Thegoodman View Post
Well, it is more complicated than this. I'll use some arbitrary numbers for simplicity sake.

Pre 3.1: Arcane Meditation was 30% regen for 100 mp5. Mage Armor was 30% regen for 100 mp5. Mage Armor Glyph was 20% regen for 66 mp5 for a total of 266 mp5.
Post 3.1: Arcane Meditation is 50% regen for 100 mp5. Mage Armor is 50% regen for 200 mp5. We are now regen capped at 200 mp5.

Total loss of 66 mp5.

This change only effects those who were using the Mage Armor glyph (which I understand to be the minority since it was understood to be a dps loss overall).
SimulationCraft uses a full-burn 5min scenario (which should probably be reconsidered) that really stressed the Arcane Mages.

Unfortunately, the Mage module does not have a dedicated owner..... so it just gets a small piece of me. The AI could almost certainly be improved.


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Old 03/10/09, 4:42 PM   #614
Astrylian
Rawr
 
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Night Elf Monk
 
Stormrage
Yes, but why is Mage Armor even being used at all in simulationcraft? Mage Armor is almost always a DPS loss, compared to Molten Armor. Certainly, it is in that situation.

Rawr!

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Old 03/10/09, 4:50 PM   #615
Celani
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Sentinels
Originally Posted by Omnia View Post
Apologies if I missed a post regarding this, but how is LIVE_57_3_11 5892dps, and PTR_57_3_11 5649dps? Are there Arcane nerfs in 3.1 that would cause a 4% dps drop?
No mage specific nerfs announced yet, but the expected loss of 5% crit from winter's scorch (to match 3.1 ISB) is in and of itself a DPS loss for all casters, barring other changes.

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