I suggest using google docs if you want to share a spreadsheet around. It works well. I took the liberty of uploading your spreadsheet here to demonstrate.
Student of the Mind (1st point: 23mp5/32dps, 2nd & 3rd point: 17mp5/24dps)
I have a question with regards to only putting one talent point in SotM as I commonly see in a 18/53/0 build. I understand the diminishing returns argument, but wouldn't it still be worth the relatively small increases over Flame Throwing (zero dps) or Combustion (given LB squanders it)?
Peagle: Flame Throwing is a personal preference decision. That isn't what this thread is about. The purpose is to give you the quantitative benefit of talents. I use this spec because I personally feel that Flame Throwing is very valuable. But at the same time you could spec differently if you feel differently. But if you do choose to spec differently, which is up to your preference, my math can help you decide which alternate talents to take.
Baalzaman: Thanks, I didn't realize you could share it without them being able to edit the file. Although I am worried it is going to be confusing for people to download it.
Your final excel sheet is a great model...the basic math of my simple sheet was based on standard probability and recognizing that an absorb is also a negate. 0.65 chance to take the damage to the ward, 0.35 [minor glyphed] to absorv and negate. Hence the sequences, 'fail' for taking the hit, 'absorb' for mana return and extending the life of the ward. The thing about actually absorbing the big hits [like the aforementioned Razorscale fireball] is that it is even more situational in some ways than the Sapphiron fight. In periodic damage fights, you can easily calculate your return over time because the damage is constant, or relatively so. For fights that depend on you being the target of a boss spell or standing with a specific group of people or only have one or two big hits over the course of the fight that are raid waide, Frost Warding becomes pure luck. It's AWESOME when you absorb that fireball...but most of the time it's just using a GCD [where your only other choice may be mana shield, so not necessarially a DPS-time loss] to mitigate damage and nothing more. Do we have a definitive answer on whether resistance checks come before or after warding? If after it doesn't affect the numbers, but if it comes before it would extend ward life and may or may not increase Mp5 depending on your resist range.
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The first time you see this, copy it into your signature on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Do we have a definitive answer on whether resistance checks come before or after warding?
While not a definite answer (I have no idea about the partial resistance case), I can tell you that if you completely resist a spell while an appropriate Ward is active, the resist takes precedence, nothing is removed from the Ward and you get no chance of mana being restored.
One would imagine this means resists are checked first, but partial resist / absorb cases would give the final verdict.
Mostly this just affects is the chance of not using the entire ward.
Ward before resist check: No change in my math at all.
Resist check before ward:
(a) Full resist does nothing but delay that one non-proc count, but doesn't do anything else; no change to math.
(b) Partial resist complicates my math a lot. The effect here depends on whether or not the diminished use of the ward that partial resisted hit allows for an extra non-proc. The math in this case is extremely complicated. I might do it if I am bored, but it would probably be a 2-3 hour project, at the least, and result in a massive conditional table like in the Magic Absorption talent.
Thanks for the info Keiren. I am procrastinating on some work I need to do, so assuming carpel-tunnel syndrome doesn't overcome me I should actually have the resist->frost warding math done soon.
I spent some time doing the ungodly large amount of math to handle partial resists. While the numbers are great, the simple display in the first post is now overly situational (it is only accurate for a person with 2000 spell power receiving periodic hits of 1600). As the size of periodic hits changes the benefit of this talent changes significantly.
Frost Ward and Fire Ward used to have a spell power coefficient around 0.29, but they were increased a while ago. They are now around 0,807. I believe the rationale for this number is, 1.5/3.5 for being an instant cast, multiplied by 0.855/0.455 for being a healing effect. I just tested that it is still the case, by standing in the lava in Shadowmoon Valley with Fire Ward on. (3682 absorbed - 1950 base) / 0.807 = 2146, and I have 2147 spell power on the character sheet.
There's an addon called ShieldMonitor that uses the new "absorbed" combat log feature to show you how much of your ward/shield is remaining. It seems quite accurate for shields that you cast yourself.
Frost Ward and Fire Ward used to have a spell power coefficient around 0.29, but they were increased a while ago. They are now around 0,807. I believe the rationale for this number is, 1.5/3.5 for being an instant cast, multiplied by 0.855/0.455 for being a healing effect. I just tested that it is still the case, by standing in the lava in Shadowmoon Valley with Fire Ward on. (3682 absorbed - 1950 base) / 0.807 = 2146, and I have 2147 spell power on the character sheet.
Man that sucks, well it is good because are wards absorb more damage, but my range of possible non-proc absorbs is going to increase dramatically, and each non-proc absorb is a multiple of 4 more steps. Updating my spreadsheets is going to take a while because I can't simply extrapolate my current method, well I could but it would require 5024 partially non patterned repetitions of calculations (to allow 7 non-proc absorbs), and I am simply not going to do that, the 340 for the 5step math was close to being too much. I know some workarounds to reduce the number of steps in specific cases, but I need some time to come up with a way to generalize them.
While you're at it, it might be more useful considering the focus of these forums to have the front page setup with more Ulduar focal scenarios, higher damage values coming from things like Ignis, Mimiron, maybe include various fires you can stand in too.
The increase in damage would keep the number of procs per ward down, as well as being more relevant :p
While you're at it, it might be more useful considering the focus of these forums to have the front page setup with more Ulduar focal scenarios, higher damage values coming from things like Ignis, Mimiron, maybe include various fires you can stand in too.
The increase in damage would keep the number of procs per ward down, as well as being more relevant :p
You stand in fires on Ignis and Mimiron? Trust me purposely taking damage just to have it absorbed and proc Frost Warding is not a good plan on fights with significant raid damage.
In general the front page is set up for Ulduar scenarios, unless you plan on having BiS Ulduar stats in Naxx.
I didn't use periodic damage numbers from Ulduar because Using the 1600 per 2 sec from Sapph was convenient and very each to do the math for. Using Ulduar numbers (probably Heat Wave from Mimiron or Flame Jets from Ignis) is something I have in mind for the revamp, but alas, I have no time right now. Also, keep in mind that my spreadsheets are designed for you to change the numbers towards your personal situation, this includes character stats along with incoming damage in the case of Frost Warding.
Considering Scorch ticks for slightly less than Fire Ward absorbs? Yes, I've certainly walked through it for a tick (or more if Frost Warding procs)... usually when the timing works out such that that cooldown of Fire Ward would otherwise go unused unless I were to get Slag Pitted (Ice Block much?)
Playing as gimmicky Arcane with Incanter's Absorption and a vicious mana habit makes it worth it :p
And Mimiron is raid damage, I'm certainly not standing in rockets lol... other things though, like Razorscale's blue fire.
unless I were to get Slag Pitted (Ice Block much?)
I wouldn't iceblock Slag Pit. You'll miss out on the haste buff you get when you get out of it. Same reason you don't get the achievment if you iceblock it.
Healers should be prepared to keep you alive easily, and you can fire ward if healers are slow. (save fire ward for the end if you have IA, so you can use the extra damage during the haste buff)
Maybe I'm just having a problem with semantics and hopefully someone can clarify this for me, but in dealing with the pairing of the IA and Frost/Fire Warding talents, when the damage of the spell is negated does that mean it is absorbed? If that is the case then in fights like Ignis, Hodir etc . .one could essentially 'double dip' on the ward procs. Or does the application of the Frost/Fire Warding towards IA only occur with the 70% chance that the damage is not negated but rather applies to the 50% increase in resistance (which I assume means an increase in absorbtion although I'm not sure how % resistance= ammount absorbed).
Actually... I'm reasonably certain that Frost Warding procs do produce (rather large) Incanter's Absorption buffs - resisted damage from resistances however do not count towards IA.
I'll make sure to double check this later tonight but I'm pretty sure.
In other news, I saw you attached a spreadsheet for the Frostfire thread. I'd like to do the same for the spreadsheet I used here, do I need special abilities to do that?
A bit late on the reply, but the ability to attach files to a thread is a perk of buying a Benefactor subscription: http://elitistjerks.com/payments.php
06/07/09, 2:11 PM
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