I prefer a spec similair to what Saizul posted. lynzh, you've given up range and taken the push-back resist talents. While not in this thread, push-back resistance has been shown to be a small concern in ICC. Range is always good, especially for movement fights (which there are plenty of in ICC) and Arcane Barrage has to many uses to drop imo.
Here's my AI spec that I've been using since ToGC. My current question is if it's worth it to max out IA to speed up the increase in spell power or not. I don't have enough information/logs to make this decision yet. I would think someone who's really good at using Rawrr could probably make some suggetions.
I took the point from Arcane Mind based on analysis done in both Rawr and looking at what "use" the other talents have in comparison with each other. The extra range and the instant cast are too valuable to me to consider losing given the movement-heavy ICC fights, which is the same reason I have Tuskarr's on feet. Arcane Meditation I also consider to be valuable as it's always active and has a slightly higher DPS-per-point than Arcane Mind for me.
The Mage theme song.
<+icesurfer> this is the fucking security industry; if you want ethics, join the Red Cross
If you try to assign a DPS-value to Arcane Meditation in order to compare it to other talents, make sure you try to give rawr data as exact as possible on the fight you expect to do.
We have reached a point where mana doesn't translate directly into damage anymore, seeing how AB-spam has become useless. That means that Arcane Meditation really only has any value when you have any mana-issues at all. On a straight out stand-and-nuke fight, this can be valuable. But even if you do nothing but cast, you rarely ever run hard-oom these days. You will be forced to evocate eventually. But then, meditation only is of any use if it saves you from having to evocate a second time. When that isn't the case, its value is quite low. Arcane Mind on the other hand is an increase in spellpower, albeit a slow one, and you cant take that away from it. The int, and by that mana-reg, portion of the talent is nice as well of course.
Now, Arcane Meditation is still a good talent, and clearly it will be a big benefit on most fights. But right now, with nearing 0 spirit on gear, the return in terms of mp5 you get from it is actually decreasing, and skipping it starts to seem like more of an option.
If you try to assign a DPS-value to Arcane Meditation in order to compare it to other talents, make sure you try to give rawr data as exact as possible on the fight you expect to do.
We have reached a point where mana doesn't translate directly into damage anymore, seeing how AB-spam has become useless. That means that Arcane Meditation really only has any value when you have any mana-issues at all. On a straight out stand-and-nuke fight, this can be valuable. But even if you do nothing but cast, you rarely ever run hard-oom these days. You will be forced to evocate eventually. But then, meditation only is of any use if it saves you from having to evocate a second time. When that isn't the case, its value is quite low. Arcane Mind on the other hand is an increase in spellpower, albeit a slow one, and you cant take that away from it. The int, and by that mana-reg, portion of the talent is nice as well of course.
Now, Arcane Meditation is still a good talent, and clearly it will be a big benefit on most fights. But right now, with nearing 0 spirit on gear, the return in terms of mp5 you get from it is actually decreasing, and skipping it starts to seem like more of an option.
The benefit of Arcane Meditation can actually be very easily calculated. It's just 17% of what your mana5 (raid buffed) would generate if you stood around for the duration of the encounter.
For example, on my mage Plowiz. He buffs to 1869 int and 700 spirit for 506mp5 while not casting. In a 6 minute encounter this amounts to
17%*360sec*506mana/5sec = 3096.72 mana. In a fight with forced stopped casting (say Professor gas bombs or Sindragosa unchained magic), the benefit would be even smaller. In shorter fights the benefit would be smeller too. Also, if the point were taken from Arcane Mind, the mana 5 would shrink by about 1.3% too ((1.12/1.15)^0.5).
Now compare that to taking a point out of Arcane Mind, would would cost you 3.3% of your base intellect (including kings.) 3.3% of my base intellect comes out to about 49 int, or 7 spellpower and ~731 mana. Everytime you evocate, 60% of that higher base mana would come into play as well.
I know this is not 100% precise, but basically the last point of Arcane Mind is worth:
spellpower=3.3% base intellect*15%
mana=3.3% base intellect * 15 * (1+6 * times you evocate) + some small amount of extra gen you get from standing still due to mechanics
Arcane Meditation
17%*506mp5*(fight time in seconds)
For my gear level (which I suspect to be similar to most progression raiding mages), this works out to about
Arcane Mind: 7sp + 731 mana + 438 mana * times I evocate
Arcane Meditation: 17%*506 mana 5*fight time (about 3050 mana in 6 minute fight, just over 2000 in 4 minute fight, 4k in 8 minute fight).
The net result basically is we're trading anywhere between 1300 and, at most, about 3000 mana for 7 spellpower. I think the tradeoff is worth it, especially for Lich King and Sindragosa due to Frost Warding and dead time.
I think you didn't list all the benefits for Arcane Mind there. The extra int can also be converted to some crit rating and there will also be extra mana regen from replenishment as well. Obviously gear set can be different depending on drops but I made a list for BiS in Rawr with no heroics and it came out to be about 2000 int and 400 spirit fully raid buffed, so we should see decreasing value for Arcane Meditation and more gains from Arcane Mind down the road.
I think you didn't list all the benefits for Arcane Mind there. The extra int can also be converted to some crit rating and there will also be extra mana regen from replenishment as well. Obviously gear set can be different depending on drops but I made a list for BiS in Rawr with no heroics and it came out to be about 2000 int and 400 spirit fully raid buffed, so we should see decreasing value for Arcane Meditation and more gains from Arcane Mind down the road.
Great points. That and as our int increases and spirit decreases, Arcane Meditation will generate slightly less mana5 on a bigger mana pool, becoming less and less effective over time.
A lot of us still have 2 points in IA and I see more people have started putting 3 points in it. The last point has to be taken from one of the useful talents and seems like people do it differently. So far I've seen people take that last point from Magic Attunment, Arcane Meditation, Arcane Mind, and Arcane Barrage. It would be nice to see a discussion on which is better.
Well Rawr will tell you.
For me it's 1 point from Arcane Mind, and 2 points from Arcane Meditation (for sindragosa you could put the third point out of arcane meditation too). However you could also put the 6 yards range out, which depends on the bossfight too.
The discussion which point is better depends heavily on which boss. E.g. IA is not good on many fights too. However, the 2 fights i didn't kill yet, Arthas + Sindragosa are very IA friendly, thats why i specced it. I also expect hardmode Festergut and Lanathal to be harsh, another reason for IA.
I pre-potted frost protection potions for every attempt.
Frost warding is invaluable for Sindragosa when used in conjunction with IA. It should also be noted that you will absorb the entire damage from a spell when frost warding procs, regardless of the amount your ward will absorb if frost warding didn't proc. Not sure if that was common knowledge or not.
I pre-potted frost protection potions for every attempt.
Frost warding is invaluable for Sindragosa when used in conjunction with IA. It should also be noted that you will absorb the entire damage from a spell when frost warding procs, regardless of the amount your ward will absorb if frost warding didn't proc. Not sure if that was common knowledge or not.
Indeed. On a recent wipe I fully negated one of her frost bombs and gained 19k mana back - it's already pretty common knowledge.
I think we can safely assume, however, that Incanter's Absorption will be gone in Cataclysm. The recent Warlock blue post about Warlocks being able to top anything other than a mage with IA was particularly damning for its fate.
... My current question is if it's worth it to max out IA to speed up the increase in spell power or not. I don't have enough information/logs to make this decision yet. I would think someone who's really good at using Rawrr could probably make some suggetions.
The issue of 3/3 IA is fairly straightforward. The benefit is capped at 5% of your health, approx 1250 spellpower. Using the 15% conversion provided by 3/3 IA, that's 8333 damage absorbed in a 10-second period.
With the exception of Twin Val'kyrs, you are not going to hit this spellpower cap. So, each point in IA is worth the same -- the effect is (for all practical purposes) linear. Putting it in its simplest possible terms, "if you are spending one point in IA, then you should go ahead and put in all three".
It's possible, but I find it highly unlikely because losing 2% crit on 60~65% of your dmg is significant. If I worked the math out it probably would come out to the equivalent of losing 55~65 crit rating.
Better off dumping a point from Arcane Mind or Arcane Meditation, which I think are the leading candidates now.
Magic Attunement and Arcane Barrage are also popular choices to drop. Both are probably less of a DPS loss than Incinerate.
IA still falls under the category of a 'very fun' talent, the likes of which they would want to presumably keep for Cataclysm. They do keep touting they want a focus on more fun/useful talents. IA encourages people to mix-up their usual play (Frost Ward becomes a crucial part of your Sindragosa DPS rotation), use esoteric spells/methods to leverage the proc (Using Mighty Absorption potions), and thinking outside-the-box for ways to better utilise it (put Sacred Shield on Mages). Everything about this relates back to recent blue discussion on why hit is 'an interesting stat'. It gives you more choices, encourages you to mixup your play to optimally manage it - and gives you some more things to think about.
It would appear more likely to be redesigned than removed, and theres a few ways to potential do that. For example: Arcane having a new 'Absorb Magic' ward talent, replacing frost/fire wards - and having that (and mage specific spells/abilities) as the only means to proc IA. Then you remove the biggest things which currently make it OP most of the time (Disc shields) and replace it with a single Mage Ward, which can be limited in its Absorption value and thus much easier to balance.
Ghostcrawler's actual text was:
Affliction was doing good damage before and with the buff should now be competitive with any class in the game, depending on the fight involved (and how much the mages benefit from IA).
Essentially implying that any fight/raidcomp which favours IA, gives mages an unfair advantage over anything else.
It might be worth noting, that Sacred Shield alone isn't enough to cap out the buff (at least not without an spellpower-stacking holy paladin).
Some simple math:
To reach the cap of 1400 (for 28k health fully buffed), you would need Sacred Shield procs of at least 4666 damage absorption (2 procs of half the cap to keep it rolling). To reach this value the paladin would need at least 4517 spellpower (the absorb of Sacred Shield is 600 + spellpower*0.9 with 2/2 Divine Guardian).
So I'm still rather new to my arcane mage, this being my first 80, and I want to clarify some things that have been on my mind as I contemplate adjusting my current spec. Mostly, how does Magic Absorption affect Incanters Absorption. Does a greater resistance to something translate into more damage absorbed, or are these two talents independent of each other? Or is it that it's just not cost effective to pull points from somewhere else in order to gain the resistance?
So I'm still rather new to my arcane mage, this being my first 80, and I want to clarify some things that have been on my mind as I contemplate adjusting my current spec. Mostly, how does Magic Absorption affect Incanters Absorption. Does a greater resistance to something translate into more damage absorbed, or are these two talents independent of each other? Or is it that it's just not cost effective to pull points from somewhere else in order to gain the resistance?
Resistance and Absorption are not the same thing. So, magic absorption doesn't effect IA at all, since to trigger IA you must "absorb" damage, not "resist".
Resistance and Absorption are not the same thing. So, magic absorption doesn't effect IA at all, since to trigger IA you must "absorb" damage, not "resist".
Unless I'm mistaken Rawr applies a negative DPS-Value to Magic Absorption if you are skilled for IA, since the resistance-check is made before any shields come into play, and a resisted spell won't be absorbed and can't increase your spellpower via IA.
It's a trade-off between survivability and DPS. Personally I would always take magic absorption in my arcane spec.
Formula for the amout of damage Frost Ward absorbs
FIrst of all: Great Thread. I have been playing around with numbers to IA for some time. This Thread was very helpful so far.
Originally Posted by diag
Frost warding + Incanter's absorption at Sindragosa:
Frost ward absorbs ~5000 dmg
I can't find any clear Statements about how much the Mages Frost Ward absorbs.
The Tooltip doesn`t show any information, wowwiki and others seem to be of no use as well.
In another Thread here at EJ i read that Frost ward does indeed scale with Spellpower with a factor of 0.3. But that does not bring me the mentioned amout of damage absorbed.
Now i can't really understand how that makes the Frost Ward absorb that much dmg.
Does anyone have a formula on how the damage absorb of Forst Ward is estimated?
Since I can't run Rawr in office, I hope that I remember correctly.
In the main tab of the characters view - where the DpS values of all possible spells are - the last two lines should show the absorption values of the wards.
If not, maybe you have to mouseover the (*)
The Spell Power coefficient for the Ward Spells seems to be 80.68%, which would be the same as a Priest's Power Word: Shield. Testing was done here: Controversial talents (the math behind them)
Couple of addons spring to mind that show you how much wards/shields will absorb when cast (as its based on SP at time of casting):
The better one would be ShieldMonitor as it gives a small bar complete with timer and remaining strength. The other would be Mage Nuggets which will simply tell you how much will be absorbed in your chat frame.
I do not suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Unless I'm mistaken Rawr applies a negative DPS-Value to Magic Absorption if you are skilled for IA, since the resistance-check is made before any shields come into play, and a resisted spell won't be absorbed and can't increase your spellpower via IA.
It's a trade-off between survivability and DPS. Personally I would always take magic absorption in my arcane spec.
I think you are right about rawr applying a negative dps value to magic absorption but shouldn't it not affect IA as long as incoming damage / sec > shields / sec since any absorbs lost to partial resists would just be absorbed on the next damage taken?
As far as I know, Incanter's Absorption works like Ignite in that when the buff is refreshed, the remaining time of the old buff is diluted over 10 seconds and then the new effect is added to that.
This would make the above example (correcting an arithmetic mistake as well):
135 SP for 2 seconds
(8/10 * 135)+15 for 10 seconds = 123 for 10 seconds
Total = 135 * 2 + 123 + 10 = 1500 (or the same as 150 * 10).
They took a small step into redesigning the talent for the better by making it only proc off mage effects. Unfortunately that alone is not good enough, and it's been left in quite a dismaying state for a 3 point talent. Outside of Sindragosa type fights where we use our Fire/Frost wards, you're left to wonder whether Blizzard intends mages to fish for procs using Mana Shield for every other encounter.
If that were the case, it's quite alot of mana-spent to get a spellpower increase via IA. One could suggest using Arcane Shielding - Spell - World of Warcraft in conjunction, but thats another 2 point investment for an already bloated talent tree.
A more elegant change, to complement the one already made, would be to have an Arcane "Absorb Magic" talent which functioned like a multi-school Ward (using the Fire/Frost ward CD). If that's still too strong, simply make it a 2 minute CD which also locks Fire/Frost wards onto that longer CD upon use. That would alleviate some of the situational aspect of the talent - and give players more control over the ability to proc it (without the high opportunity cost associated with using Mana Shield).
As it stands now after this change, there's a few too many drawbacks: It's 3 points, too situational, and (if you decide to use Mana Shield) has a very high opportunity cost to use.
02/06/10, 1:10 PM
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