The Way of the Sword: Retribution in Cataclysm - Page 11

• frmorrison · 07/22/10, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by cremor

Judgement does proc seals on live. GC just confirmed that Holy Paladins will still be able to regen mana with Judgement in Cata.

Judgement does proc some seals on live, like SoL/SoW and maybe SoR. Holy has always been able to gain mana from SoW (renamed in Cata) via Judging since it became a melee attack (in 3.0 it was a ranged attack).

JotJ (prot talent) allows all Judgements to proc a Seal (via a bug).

• Zurm · 07/22/10, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by chippydip

Conclusions:
* TV seems too expensive to support pressing a button every cooldown if you proc Holy Power at all. If the costs and mana regen remain unchanged, we may end up skipping some filler use altogether to keep up the CS->TV spam

Your whole post is based around this idea of mana being a problem, and it makes me wonder if you've actually TRIED playing on the beta at all, or read how JOTW has been changed (that isn't reflected in tooltip parses datamined by MMO Champion or World of Raids). You may also be forgetting the 2% mana per second regen that all ret paladins get at level 10.

I outlined this earlier in this thread.

Mana is currently not even remotely an issue in beta. Judgement still hits hard, so you keep it high in the new "cycle", which looks something like this:

Set 1: CS J CS E CS Inquisition
Set 2: CS J CS E CS TV
Set 3: CS J CS E CS TV

Each set above lasts about 9 seconds, and everything together about 27 seconds. This fits nicely with a 3 "point" (holy power stack) Inquisition, which lasts 30 seconds. Of course, our random chance to proc HP off attacks throws this off a little, but the way the above rotation works, if you DO get a free proc, you usually just push the Exorcism back and replace it with TV. With Zealotry up, we move to something like this:

CS TV J CS TV CS TV

...where you sneak the Judgement in, as needed. Since it is a MOT ("Mana Over Time"), triggering judgement right before Zealotry will help. Since Zealotry lasts 30s, if you don't judge at all during it you, only then, may have mana issues.

Elamahpla · 07/22/10, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Your whole post is based around this idea of mana being a problem, and it makes me wonder if you've actually TRIED playing on the beta at all, or read how JOTW has been changed (that isn't reflected in tooltip parses datamined by MMO Champion or World of Raids). You may also be forgetting the 2% mana per second regen that all ret paladins get at level 10.

I outlined this earlier in this thread.

Mana is currently not even remotely an issue in beta. Judgement still hits hard, so you keep it high in the new "cycle", which looks something like this:

Set 1: CS J CS E CS Inquisition
Set 2: CS J CS E CS TV
Set 3: CS J CS E CS TV

Each set above lasts about 9 seconds, and everything together about 27 seconds. This fits nicely with a 3 "point" (holy power stack) Inquisition, which lasts 30 seconds. Of course, our random chance to proc HP off attacks throws this off a little, but the way the above rotation works, if you DO get a free proc, you usually just push the Exorcism back and replace it with TV. With Zealotry up, we move to something like this:

CS TV J CS TV CS TV

...where you sneak the Judgement in, as needed. Since it is a MOT ("Mana Over Time"), triggering judgement right before Zealotry will help. Since Zealotry lasts 30s, if you don't judge at all during it you, only then, may have mana issues.

Now, you say mana isn't an issue. You list your "cycle" without consecrate (I'd assume without HW regardless). Is this just because of the 'wasted' GCD or for other reasons?

Baird · 07/22/10, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Set 1: CS J CS E CS Inquisition
Set 2: CS J CS E CS TV
Set 3: CS J CS E CS TV

Beta server is down atm so I can't play around with this and see how valid this actually could/would be, but what about possibly trying to work in consecrate into every other Exorcism's spot? I'm thinking it would look something like this:

Set 1: CS J CS Cons CS Inquisition
Set 2: CS J CS Exo (Cons should still be down) CS TV
Set 3: CS J CS Cons CS TV

My thinking being that since Consecration lasts 15 seconds we won't need to be using it as often and it could be down for the full rotation. Lasting 15 seconds and assuming you use an ability every GCD, Consecration would fade after the Judgement of the 3rd set, and glyphing it would make it last pretty close to when you would have a chance to cast it again. This is all pretty speculative tho since I can't get on to take it for a spin at the moment, but at first glance it sounds reasonable.

*edit, spelling

• frmorrison · 07/22/10, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Baird

Beta server is down atm so I can't play around with this and see how valid this actually could/would be, but what about possibly trying to work in consecrate into every other Exorcism's spot?

glyphing it would make it last pretty close to when you would have a chance to cast it again.

Just a note, I don't have Beta access.

The design intent is for the AoE abilities (Divine Storm, Cons, and HW) to mostly be used for AoE mostly, so there should be single target and AoE rotations. Also any glyphs that exist are likely to be redesigned (first they need to fix the talents before worrying about glyphs), so don't count on a longer Cons spell.
If Cons outdamages Exo on one target, then Exo should be buffed or there would be some penalty to using Cons on a single target (you need to use a GCD on Plea to make up the mana difference) to fit Cata's design.

chippydip · 07/22/10, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Your whole post is based around this idea of mana being a problem, and it makes me wonder if you've actually TRIED playing on the beta at all, or read how JOTW has been changed (that isn't reflected in tooltip parses datamined by MMO Champion or World of Raids). You may also be forgetting the 2% mana per second regen that all ret paladins get at level 10.

I don't have beta access yet (I got a beta key from wowinterface today, though, so as soon as they figure out they that batch of keys isn't currently working I'll be able to try this stuff in game). In any event, this was all based on published numbers and my best guesses of how things might changed in the short-term based on blue posts.

My assumption was that the 2% per second from Divine Purpose was being replaced with the 40% over 10 second JotW mechanic when they move that ability to baseline for ret and prot. If you are still getting both, then that works out to at least 60% over 10 seconds. This still makes CS+TV spam mana negative, but not nearly as bad as otherwise and it might be close to mana-neutral considering other sources of regen.

The problem, though, is if mana regen is at this level, then Exo becomes less and less attractive. Consecrate currently seems like about twice the DPCT as an Exo filler, so that's half of the Exos gone. If auto attacks proc Holy Power, then the rotation gets shorter which will drop out some of the filler as well. If you want to be able to use other non-dps utility fillers at all then Exo will be almost non-existent. Is spending 4 talent points really worth it at that point to make Exo even usable in the first place really going to be worth it at that point?

I would imagine that Blizzard actually wants to balance this so that using Consecrate, Holy Wrath, and even Healing Hands in a single target DPS rotation comes at some sort of cost. Right now, it looks like they are trying to balance that based on higher mana costs. If that's not the case now, I would expect them to try to change things to make it actually matter. If they do this, though, they will have to do something to support TV spam under Zealotry. My post was really just trying to take a longer view to see what Blizzard's intentions seem to be with the current trees and figure out what might pop out as they start turning various nobs.

I think my most interesting revelation was that if mana ends up balanced in such a way that we can go mana negative temporarily to increase burst dps you could then drop Exo and TV for a bit to regain that mana and use your Holy Power on Word of Glory heals. Sort of the reverse of how healers are getting to dps (and regen mana) when they don't need to heal.

Rammurg · 07/22/10, 4:56 PM

There might be times when you don't have an AoW proc when it's time to cast Exo (AoW is 30% chance per melee swing if I'm not mistaken, the procs weren't very plenty at least when I tried it out), and will have to resort to Cons or Holy Wrath, whichever ends up being better. I wonder which spot HoW will take during wings/below 20% though, they might still tune it's damage.

GeuGeu · 07/22/10, 5:36 PM

Seems as though Cons even Inquisition will never be used. Ever. Ever ever. Wasting a TV, which is hitting for almost 18k, for 30% or whatever more holy damage? lol No thanks. Everything we're doing that hits hard is physical, so why waste a 225% WD ability for 20% inc Seal, RV, and Exorc damage? Idk, but it seems as though TV and CS will do most of our damage now, not seals and Holy. Going to have to wait for legit numbers to figure it out.

Again, TIME WILL TELL.

Nêver · 07/22/10, 6:10 PM

Never ever?
You shouldn't make that hard statements, when its all speculation, with most things still in development. ^^
The numbers aren't set in stone yet.

I really dont think, that they would develop a new ability without wanting us to use it.

Glutton · 07/22/10, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rammurg

There might be times when you don't have an AoW proc when it's time to cast Exo (AoW is 30% chance per melee swing if I'm not mistaken, the procs weren't very plenty at least when I tried it out), and will have to resort to Cons or Holy Wrath, whichever ends up being better. I wonder which spot HoW will take during wings/below 20% though, they might still tune it's damage.

Consecrate's damage formula was nerfed by half when it was granted the ability to crit. Holy Wrath would be the best filler when Crusader Strike and Judgement are on cooldown and Art of War is not procced.

HoW's damage formula hasn't changed yet, although it's certainly a possibility.

chippydip · 07/22/10, 9:21 PM

That makes more sense. mmo-champion was still listing Consecration as 32% ap + sp, but I just check wowhead and its showing 4% now which definitely places it well behind Exo and Holy Wrath.

In any case, I'm still not a huge fan of spending 4 talent points for a gap filler. Art of War used to be 2 talents and gave the added utility of instant FoL. The new layout makes it effectiely cost 4 talent points since you need to spend 2 in the prereq and we only have half as many talent points to toss around.

Babathong · 07/22/10, 10:08 PM

New beta build just came out. Looks like a bunch of changes, including the removal of RV?

Righteous Vengeance is now Inquiry of Faith - Increases the periodic damage done by your Seal of Truth by 20/40/60%.

Not sure if its just gone, or moved to baseline. There are quite a few interesting changes that some of you guys with beta keys will have to elaborate on when you can.

The other changes:

Inquisition is now Exclusive with Holy Shield.
Seal of Vengeance is now named Seal of Truth and its Holy Vengeance renamed to Censure.
Zealotry now has a 2 min cooldown, down from 30 min. Now lasts 15 sec. (Down from 30 sec)
Wrath of the Lightbringer gone.
Acts of Sacrifice *New* - Decreases the cooldown by 10/20/% and mana cost by 10/20% of your Hand of Freedom and Hand of Salvation.
Righteous Vengeance is now Inquiry of Faith - Increases the periodic damage done by your Seal of Truth by 20/40/60%.
Swift Retribution now also increases damage by 3%. Moved from Tier 6 to Tier 5.
Sanctified Retribution is gone.
Improved Crusader Strike is gone.
Heart of the Crusader is gone.
Sanctity of Battle no longer reduces the cooldown of Exorcism.
Templar's Verdict is now a primary skill of Retribution.
Communion *New* - Your Judgement grants the Replenishment effect to up to 10 party or raid members mana regeneration equal to 1% of their maximum mana per 5 sec for 15 sec.
Improved Judgement no longer decreases the cooldown of Judgement.
Judgements of the Wise is now a primary skill.
Selfless Healer (Tier 5) - Increases the healing of your Word of Glory by 30/60% when used to heal others.
Divine Purpose is now a Tier 4 talent - Your Templar's Verdict, Divine Storm and Inquisition have a 40% chance to generate Holy Power.
Divine Storm is now a Tier 3 talent.

GeuGeu · 07/22/10, 10:08 PM

Don't misunderstand me. I am completely just creating debate for whether or not Cons will be used. And even though it's beta, why are we here in the first place, but to discuss changes as they come one by one, a piece at a time? I seriously think it will be garbage. Weapon damage abilities everywhere, with little to no holy damage anymore. I doubt Seal of Truth (I don't like the new name either) will be insanely increased, nor Exorcism. I mean yeah we're going to use Exorc alot now, but throwing a 225% WD ability to buff it by a mere 30%? I don't know bro. ( Edit: ) However, the new 60% inc DOT damage on SoTruth might change what I've said. I dunno. Could be a fine line.

Also the talent trees are becoming neat now. I can safely get PoJ and either Pummel or Repent in the new build. I'd go with pummel, as a CC is very lousy, especially when a guild like mine just runs in and AoE's anything anyway. I'll respec if needed, but I've always been in circumstances where we wiped from not interrupting more than not CC'ing.

Also, is anyone else not sure what they mean by Exclusive to Holy Shield?

smashbro · 07/22/10, 10:30 PM

WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie
seems like the optimum build in this version of the beta. If threat is an issue we might have to move a few points around to get Acts of Sacrifice.

@ GeuGeu

I'm not sure what it means by it being exclusive either...

Joelly · 07/22/10, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by GeuGeu

Also, is anyone else not sure what they mean by Exclusive to Holy Shield?

I read that as it will only increase holy damage of holy shield by 30%.

Also Eye for an Eye seems very situational. With the nerf to aoe trash pulls in the expansion, maybe repentance would be a better choice. Eye for an Eye still obviously is more dps.