Just realized on the good side - we'll want to pop Inq as fast as possible, which means we skip the first TV. This should help avoid fight starting threat pulls, since in my experience by the 2nd TV I've been safe to pop Zealotry or AW.
This makes me wonder, what happens with Avenging Wrath and Zealotry in these cases? We've used to align first AW on PowerUp buffs (trinkets, Berserking and whatnot) provided we have 5x Holy Vengeance or close, and preferably a hard hitter (such as Judgement pre-4.0.1.) to squeeze in that extra dps.
As it is now, there's Inq. to be taken care of as well, and perhaps threat in a way.
So the question is - how to make the best usage of AW and Zealotry? I didn't take a look at Cataclysm trinkets, but perhaps there's a cute one with +Str proc, or at least there will be at some point. Considering such procs occur very soon as you start attacking, they are likely to expire by the time we get 5x Censure, Inquisition and another set of 3HP.
This also leads to the next question, is haste underrated or the values are pretty stable as they are now considering the above? Haste leads to faster melee swings (though I imagine it is not as significant in a pretty short time frame) and decreases CS cooldown which allows us to get to 3HP for Inq faster and build up another set of holy power for Zealotry, as well as 5x Censure. Or AW and Zealotry have been kept in mind when you modeled haste? (Double checking with myself in case I have missed some points in these threads)
If we continue to separate Zealotry and AW (very likely, since HoW is still better than 3HP TV), then you would probably want to pop one early and the other to match with the second set of procs. Most items have a 45 sec internal cooldown and in average proc within another 5 seconds or so.
HoW (50% AP) scales better than TV (AP/14 * 235% = 15%), an AP or Str proc would provide greater increase to HoW. At fight start you are above 20%, thus unable to use HoW unless under effects of AW. To get maximum gain you would want to use AW during the proc in order for your HoW to benefit from the gain.
Thus you would have a proc at fight start (0) and the next around 50 seconds. You spend 0 to 6 earning HP for Inquisition. Then 6 to 12 earning more. Pop Zealotry (so it will return off CD sooner). It wears off around 32 seconds. Wait 20ish seconds for the proc and engage AW. This gives a convenient window to refresh Inq and build up for a TV immediately after the AW+HoW macro you would be using.
The two circumstances where you would not want to sync in that fashion would be if you need cooldowns for a particular burn phase, or if that extra 20 seconds at the start means losing an AW over the course of the fight.
Haste is not underrated in the spreadsheets, but it's never "stable" compared to other stats. Haste increases autoattack, which increases AoW and HoL procs. Either of these throw off subsequent attacks since Exo at 85 is superior to TV. It's also impacted by your latency. It partially lets us "do more" and partially lets us only "do different".
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Uh, what? A TV gcd gets AP/14 * wpnspeed * 2.35 from AP, that's above 50% as soon as your weapon is around 3.0 speed or slower.
Whoops, correct. The magic number is actually about 3.24 speed (since neither of us used HoW's 15% spellpower (Aka 15% * 30% AP = 4.5% AP) coefficient). Still well below any reasonable 2H weapon speed.
However, HoW crits significantly more frequently than TV (Sanctified Wrath is huge).
In both Redcape's spreadsheet and mine, every stat scenario I tried (more crit, and/or haste) HoW increased from Str or AP more rapidly than TV. But this is in base gear. As weapon base damage increases, while HoW's base remains static, you'd reach an inflection point.
Thinking further I think it cannot be given a generic answer. The damage of fillers and possibly empty GCD under AW vs the guaranteed sequence of CS and TV (possibly interrupted by Exo) would vary, even at low gear levels.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Whoops, correct. The magic number is actually about 3.24 speed (since neither of us used HoW's 15% spellpower (Aka 15% * 30% AP = 4.5% AP) coefficient). Still well below any reasonable 2H weapon speed.
However, HoW crits significantly more frequently than TV (Sanctified Wrath is huge).
Well, it's even more complicated than that, of course, since there's spell damage debuffs, armor reduction etc. :-) I agree that HoW scales better, I just wanted to correct the weapon speed miss in your calculation.
AW used on CD is up for 20s/2m, so on paper it should boost 1/6th of our total damage dealt by 20% - that's 3.33%. Of course our damage does have peaks and troughs due to HoPo generation, but it surely wouldn't account for that much of a difference. What am I missing that is making AW twice as good as the numbers say it should be?
Mastery being RNG driven, requiring an active keypress, taking a GCD, and possibly being lost if not used is 4 penalties - other specs get no penalties (flat boosts to certain types of damage) or at worst RNG driven.
Just for the heck of it, I implemented an "elemental overload" version of hand of light (that is, instead of HoL giving a buff it procs a 3hp TV) in simulationcraft and compared numbers. The profile I ran is based on an epic-geared premade but without trinket procs and such implemented so the actual dps numbers aren't really relevant, I'm more interested in the comparison. The average fight length here is ~300s (10000 iterations, with fight lengths between ~200s and ~400s)
I had expected the dps difference to be bigger, but I guess it comes down to auto-TVs only really generate more fillers and fillers are weak. Time spent waiting went up from ~5.3% to ~7.1% though, so definitely less gcd lockage. Most importantly, the value of mastery is getting closer to crit instead of being utterly useless, and it would make it easier to tweak the value of it if it's passive instead of consuming a gcd.
It was an interesting experiment, at least.
Originally Posted by Exemplar
Oh, and we've had the new talents for a month and Communion still does not provide the 3% raid buff. It's worrisome when well publicized and identified bugs go unfixed, because it reduces confidence in under-the-hood corrections.
Hmm, on the beta I'm pretty sure it works. I haven't grouped up with anyone to try it, but the other day I tested damage done with holy wrath before and after speccing into communion (no aura up) and it increased by 2%, and then I activated an aura and it went up by another 3%. We don't get any separate buff showing it's active but I guess that's because we already have the aura buff and they didn't want to clog up the buff list.
sjogren caught an error in my numbers for HoW. It should be 39% AP and 11.7% SP on beta. The new tooltip actually updates perfectly so it makes figuring out the numbers much less terrible.
This lowers the damage of HoW by about 15% or so. However, it doesn't change the optimal rotation, which still has HoW and Exorcism above TV. The differences between mixing those 3 up is less than 100 dps into 18k so it hardly matters (and may well vanish/reverse with different settings) but there it is.
On live the HoW numbers are 50% and 15%, which is what I was using up until now. Amusingly if you add the effect of Inquisition to the beta HoW it becomes almost exactly the same as the live HoW...
Hmm, on the beta I'm pretty sure it works. I haven't grouped up with anyone to try it, but the other day I tested damage done with holy wrath before and after speccing into communion (no aura up) and it increased by 2%, and then I activated an aura and it went up by another 3%. We don't get any separate buff showing it's active but I guess that's because we already have the aura buff and they didn't want to clog up the buff list.
Just look at autoattack damage to be sure. The tooltip updates for modifiers. Spec communion and it shows "x 102%" with or without auras on live. If you can toggle between 102% and 105% with aura off/on, then it's fixed.
You'd think they'd want to at least put that in one of the Beta patch notes when they fixed it.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Just look at autoattack damage to be sure. The tooltip updates for modifiers. Spec communion and it shows "x 102%" with or without auras on live. If you can toggle between 102% and 105% with aura off/on, then it's fixed.
You'd think they'd want to at least put that in one of the Beta patch notes when they fixed it.
Just tested on Beta: toggling an aura on and off does cause the Damage tooltip to toggle between 102%/105%.
GoAK has been buffed for ret, apparently in a hotfix since last night (I am fairly certain) it was working as the tooltip states. The guardian now lasts 30 seconds instead of 12, and the strength buffed has been changed from 42 strength per stack to 1% strength per stack (not sure how recent this is, hadn't checked that buff in awhile to be honest).
Currently the strength buff does not show up on the paperdoll. It does, however, seem to be showing up on ability tooltips. It increases damage in a weird way on the tool tips though, seems to be adding 1 damage per stack.
I'm sorry if I missed this. I'm reading that Eye for an Eye doesn't reflect AoE (like sindy), but does on targetted spells (from festergut). Has anyone specced into Eye for an Eye done LK? I'm curious to know which category infest falls into.
Just tested on Beta: toggling an aura on and off does cause the Damage tooltip to toggle between 102%/105%.
Good, at least our personal damage will gain a much needed 3%, plus our utility in a party/raid will increase.
Originally Posted by beta4Life
GoAK has been buffed for ret, apparently in a hotfix since last night (I am fairly certain) it was working as the tooltip states. The guardian now lasts 30 seconds instead of 12, and the strength buffed has been changed from 42 strength per stack to 1% strength per stack (not sure how recent this is, hadn't checked that buff in awhile to be honest).
Currently the strength buff does not show up on the paperdoll. It does, however, seem to be showing up on ability tooltips. It increases damage in a weird way on the tool tips though, seems to be adding 1 damage per stack.
This is interesting, too. I was wondering just recently if they could make it a useful skill coming launch, sounds a good step towards it.
Originally Posted by aylen86
A slight wp-dmg buff to Divine Storm on the PTR (patch 4.0.3a), but still disappointing without further changes to our core talents:
So they finally acknowledged that 60% weapon damage was ridiculously low...I suppose that's something. However, they still need to bump it some more, plus they should remove Divine Storm from Divine Purpose proc chance and give it a flat 100% HP gain, since it will now be an alternative to CS, meaning if we press DS we can't press CS again for the next 4.5-3 seconds.
Can anyone figure out how much this first weapon damage buff to DS would help, in terms of profitable use with a certain number of targets?
With the addition of selfless healer its looks like blizz want us to be able to help out with healing if the sh*t hits the fan. I'm trying to figure out if obtaining a 1.6 speed healer mace and shield will be better for throwing out those few WOG heals while the druid healer battle rezzes a dead healer.
Seeing as a weapon like Maldo's Sword Cane would give a lot more spell power than having your normal 2h weapon equipped. Also, having the 1.6 speed would mean more HoL procs.
So far the only disadvantages I can see are that any attack that uses weapon dps to calculate damage will be lower. So CS, DS, TV, Seal of Truth 5 stack and Seal of Command talent.
The benifits of using the 1.6 speed healer weapon seem to be quite good though. More frequent HoL and AoW procs, harder hitting Exo, HoW, HW and Judgements.
Not 100% certain if two handed weapon specialization's 20% damage increase affects all damage or just autoattacks.
With the addition of selfless healer its looks like blizz want us to be able to help out with healing if the sh*t hits the fan. I'm trying to figure out if obtaining a 1.6 speed healer mace and shield will be better for throwing out those few WOG heals while the druid healer battle rezzes a dead healer.
Seeing as a weapon like Maldo's Sword Cane would give a lot more spell power than having your normal 2h weapon equipped. Also, having the 1.6 speed would mean more HoL procs.
So far the only disadvantages I can see are that any attack that uses weapon dps to calculate damage will be lower. So CS, DS, TV, Seal of Truth 5 stack and Seal of Command talent.
The benifits of using the 1.6 speed healer weapon seem to be quite good though. More frequent HoL and AoW procs, harder hitting Exo, HoW, HW and Judgements.
Not 100% certain if two handed weapon specialization's 20% damage increase affects all damage or just autoattacks.
There's a lot of misguided info here. For starters, exorcism's AP/SP contribution is determined by the higher of the two stats. As a ret pally, your AP will almost definitely be higher than your SP, even after the weapon swap. So Exorcism will likely not hit harder. Secondly, HoW scales better with AP than with SP, at a rate of about 3.33:1. So you'd have to gain ~333% more SP than you would lose AP from the weapon swap. Using full raid buffs and ilvl 359 weapons as an example (Maldo's Sword Cane vs. Reclaimed Ashkandi), you'd lose 716 AP and 236 SP while gaining 2318 SP, for a net gain of 2082 SP. That means a loss of ~279 damage and a gain of ~244 damage, another net loss. That's not to mention a potential loss of hit rating, depending on your setup, that would be an additional reduction in DPS.
I'd go on, but the idea should be clear. You'd be absolutely obliterating your DPS to gain some more healing, when you can still use WoG (and SH itself provides a hefty boost to it already), you'll have Holy Radiance available, you can use LoH, and lastly you can always stop and hard-cast a couple heals while your druid picks up the fail healer. You have more than enough tools already, worrying about carrying a healing weapon is certainly an option, but it's far from a stellar idea.
More importantly, why on earth would you worry about min/maxing for occassions that should be rare? If you have to worry about helping out on healing because one healer dies so often that it's a legitimate concern, than the min/maxing that should occur would be on your raid roster. Bench the failure that can't stay alive and you'll profit much, much more than from a weapon swap.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
To answer an almost-asked question: 2H Weapon Spec affects Autoattack, CS, TV, Judgement, SoT/SoR (procs, not Censure), and Seals of Command. Additionally your 1H weapon is going to be missing hundreds of Str. If your 1H weapon is twice as fast as a 2H, it would need base damage at 60% of the 2H weapon just for the TV to match. Not counting the extra GCD spent on HoL procs and damage lost from every other melee attack.
Using a 1H weapon full-time will be an enormous damage loss.
Additionally, you cannot throw out a "few WOG heals" unless you're taking dozens of seconds to do so, since each will consume all our HP. If you are considering a "swap to 1H + shield, toss WoG, return to DPS" this is naturally a huge DPS loss. You are wasting 3 GCD (gear swap, WoG, gearswap) out of our still-GCD-locked setup along with massive amounts from the CS/fillers you are using to build up to another WoG.
As long as we still remain GCD locked (worse so as we gain Mastery, even reforging away as much as we can) we cannot fulfill a support role. Using Salvation, Freedom, or a WoG to save a raider's life may be the difference between a boss kill and a wipe - by all means do it. However unless they change our mechanics, it will be a DPS loss to do so.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
DS Damage per target: 5424
CS damage base: 10528
CS damage including SoR and SoC on 3+ targets: 18766
DS on 4 targets: 21696
So because CS provides a full holy power it is definitely better on 4 targets. I think DS is going to pull ahead on 5 targets but the difference will be very small. DS doesn't really become significantly better until 6 targets. With the current design you should only use DS in full on AOE situations so it probably won't be useful in any heroic and it will see minimal use in raids.
DS Damage per target: 5424
CS damage base: 10528
CS damage including SoR and SoC on 3+ targets: 18766
DS on 4 targets: 21696
So because CS provides a full holy power it is definitely better on 4 targets. I think DS is going to pull ahead on 5 targets but the difference will be very small. DS doesn't really become significantly better until 6 targets. With the current design you should only use DS in full on AOE situations so it probably won't be useful in any heroic and it will see minimal use in raids.
Well, it is still work in progress I think. We should provide them with this data, I understand their process is iterative and it may not be over yet. Anyway, as I already said....DS should be changeed to provide a full, stable holy power too since it will now go in sync with CS.
I'm not sure DS needs to grant a HP 100% of the time, If we're doing AoE, then we probably don't need substantially high single target, so TV is not as necessary, and we'll still be able to do them, just less frequently. So long as DS is better at 4, maybe 3, or more targets, that's all that seems necessary. 3 almost seems to be their magic number for adds so having single target and AoE be about equal at that number seems pretty spot on. If there is more than 3 it's usually trash, and fairly pointless, making the talent largely worthless.
I'm not sure DS needs to grant a HP 100% of the time, If we're doing AoE, then we probably don't need substantially high single target, so TV is not as necessary, and we'll still be able to do them, just less frequently. So long as DS is better at 4, maybe 3, or more targets, that's all that seems necessary. 3 almost seems to be their magic number for adds so having single target and AoE be about equal at that number seems pretty spot on. If there is more than 3 it's usually trash, and fairly pointless, making the talent largely worthless.
Uhm, good point. Then maybe damage should just be adjusted further. 100% weapon damage could possibly be enough, with another 20% bump, just like this last one.
Anyway, I agree: three targets is the ideal number, Divine Storm should be tweaked with that in mind.
I believe quite the contrary, let's pick a fight like Halion heroic 25 man: we need to kill the adds, but still keep quite a bit of single target damage on the boss, so right now, for example, I keep the regular single target rotation on halion and Divine Storm at 3 holy power. Having DS give 1 holy power like CS would fit such mechanic perfectly, while, if it's just lots-o-trash aoe fest (which, according to blizz, will be a thing of the past), you can still just keep spamming it and throw a TV or refresh Inq here and there.
I see no reason why DS needs to be kept on Divine Purpose as it shares a cooldown with CS now. Having one ability for each case (pure single target vs cleave needed) just makes so much more sense.
Edit: Maybe having it stay at 80% and have talents that increase CS crit chance and damage affect DS could fit it very well in order to make it more desirable at 3+ targets.
11/12/10, 11:42 AM
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