The Way of the Sword: Retribution in Cataclysm - Page 51

anaxes · 10/08/10, 5:13 PM

Your numbers from the above weights Exemplar fairly matches my thoughts in an earlier post. It just didn't feel right that mastery would overtake crit, when as you said the proc overwrites a different ability more often then not, is only useful on one thing <autoattacks> whereas crit just affects all around damage.

Hell to even just dumb it down even more isn't a critical TV nearly the same as a non-crit 3HPTV and a non-crit HoL combined. which not criting would be fairly common stacking mastery as the 2nd highest priority rating, then it just makes damage on everything else look bad.

Nairobi the Kenyan · 10/08/10, 6:54 PM

Originally Posted by chippydip

Lets compare: JotP is a separate haste effect, so its actually worth more the more haste you have elsewhere. With 17% from gear and 5% from totem, for example, its worth the same as about 11% extra from gear which is 3.67% per point. AotL on the other hand works just like crit from gear except that it only applies to TV and J. Point-for-point we see that JotP is worth 3.67 * 0.23 = 8.43. AotL is worth 6 * 0.46 * x (where x is the percentage of damage from TV and J). We can calculate the breakpoint at which AotL becomes better than JotP: 8.43 / 6 / 0.46 = 0.3. So, if TV + J damage is about 30% of overall dps, the talents will be about equal. I would estimate TV at something like 20% of damage and J as a bit over 5% so they are likely close, but JotP seems to have the edge.

Similarly, you can look at seal damage vs. TV + J damage to compare AotL to SotP. They are both a 6% boost per point, but SotP is slighly better since its a multiplicative effect whereas AotL is additive with current crit. Seal damage should be a bit over 25% of total damage just like TV + J but the talent scales a little better so it edges out AotL.

In any case, I wouldn't expect the dps difference between these 3 talents to be very noticeable at all and you can probably just pick your favorites at level 80. Once you hit 81, though, JotP and SotP should scale better since they both effect (at least in part) our holy damage which will be boosted by Inq.

Yeah totally makes sense. I guess I was in the mindset of "crit is subpar to haste" and just kinda approached all my testing as such. Off to reforge and test some more.

On the topic of 3/2/31 (which I totally just assumed "TV = GOOD = take arbiter"), with the boost to seals/censure, would that likely push TAJ back to its glory over double crit trinkets in the short run? Having a hard time modeling it atm, but mote generation does not appear to be nerfed at 80. Clearly it loses steam at 81+, but wondering if there's a glaring math issue that I can't wrap my head around to point one way or the other.

Redcape · 10/08/10, 8:02 PM

@Exemplar

You are certainly right that latency has a massive effect on our weightings. Since two of our stats give us more buttons to hit it is critical to know how many buttons we are going to be able to hit in a given period to evaluate them. Here is the thing about my weights: My sheet is fairly primitive at this point, which means I can give you an extremely tight value for crit and a fairly tight one for haste but my mastery number is going to be much less reliable. I was having to make some guesses about how our rotations would change so if you actually have a working rotation builder going then I would bet you have a better idea of mastery weighting than I. One thing to keep in mind is that with both haste and mastery increasing our number of buttons to hit we are going to quickly head towards the point where both start to drop off rapidly in value because our GCDs are going to be jammed full.

kharen · 10/08/10, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Mechanics questions:
2a) How is the new "spell queue" working? Does it effectively remove all latency if you press an available attack while under GCD?

Seems to work fairly well on a basic level. Feels a little funky at times, and you definitely have to adjust slightly from how you do things on live, but it's hard for me to really get a feel for it thanks to the usual trans-continental beta latency (I'm used to <100ms to my live EU server, whereas beta is typicaly 4-500ms thanks to the beta servers being in California).

But overall, it seems to do it's job quite nicely when dealing with instants that are cleanly off their cooldown.

Unfortunately...

2b) How about if the next attack isn't quite available? I.e. 0.2 seconds left on GCD and 0.1 second left on ability CD.

It doesn't do anything to help this situation - if the remaining cooldown is longer than the GCD (even fractionally), which happens quite frequently for ret, you just can't queue it, and it's no different to live. This leads to a rather awkward situation where sometimes you're better off just hitting a button once to queue an ability (spamming can be a little weird with the queue, and can lead to queueing things up multiple times accidentally), and sometimes you're better off spamming as on live to get the ability off as soon as it's off cooldown.

anaxes · 10/08/10, 11:34 PM

Clarification: Is Haste affecting Censure Tick Rate? Test with naked haste ticks over 5 minutes then haste as high as you can gain over 5 minutes. Does Censure Crit?

Kaernya · 10/09/10, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by anaxes

Clarification: Is Haste affecting Censure Tick Rate? Test with naked haste ticks over 5 minutes then haste as high as you can gain over 5 minutes. Does Censure Crit?

No need to test haste as the DoT says how much time passes between ticks (2.29 seconds for me at level 80 on the Beta), I haven't really looked for crits though but I'm pretty sure someone has tested that.

EDIT: I just went out and hit some mobs and got 3 censure crits, so it does indeed crit.

Kvaern · 10/09/10, 10:30 AM

This may be a stupid question but how would they go about fixing the huge discrepancy in stat values without completely changing our rotation/abilities?

So far strength seems so powerful we'll simply gear based on which item has the most strength on it with very few, if any, other factors involved.

Elimbras · 10/09/10, 11:18 AM

Like they did for tanks, caster and healers in Wrath: by normalizing the amount of strength (or spellpower or stamina, in short of primary stats) on gear. At a given tier level, all (or most) gear for one slot will have the same amount of strength (and gems budget will most likely been taken on that amount of primary stats). So, outside gemming and enchanting, we'll have no real option of gearing for strength.

kracker98 · 10/09/10, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Elimbras

Like they did for tanks, caster and healers in Wrath: by normalizing the amount of strength (or spellpower or stamina, in short of primary stats) on gear. At a given tier level, all (or most) gear for one slot will have the same amount of strength (and gems budget will most likely been taken on that amount of primary stats). So, outside gemming and enchanting, we'll have no real option of gearing for strength.

This is why reforging is going to play such a big roll in gearing. It's going to be the secondary stats on gear that are going to make the difference in selection.

Nätion · 10/09/10, 8:31 PM

Thanks to these pics from Ravus. http://www.ravchat.com/images/haste2.jpg and http://www.ravchat.com/images/haste1.jpg

It's clear that CS will be using the spell haste conversion rate.

Therefore to obtain a 3s CD we will be 1230 haste rating w/o WoAT, and 1019 haste with WoAT to "cap" CS at 3s.

burghy · 10/10/10, 4:07 AM

3.7 weapon, 2.47 melee speed means he has ~50% melee haste which is the value needed for 3s CS. Why do you think it's using the spell formula?
And are there even different formulas for spell/melee haste?

Nakari · 10/10/10, 6:11 AM

Originally Posted by burghy

3.7 weapon, 2.47 melee speed means he has ~50% melee haste which is the value needed for 3s CS. Why do you think it's using the spell formula?
And are there even different formulas for spell/melee haste?

No there aren't anymore. The 30% buff paladins, druids, shamans and DKs received to their haste rating conversion for melee attacks in 3.1 has been removed in Cata, so spell and melee haste rating conversion rates are the same again.

Capstone · 10/10/10, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Nakari

No there aren't anymore. The 30% buff paladins, druids, shamans and DKs received to their haste rating conversion for melee attacks in 3.1 has been removed in Cata, so spell and melee haste rating conversion rates are the same again.

As can be directly seen in the photos posted, so I am also confused as to why the assumption was made that CS used spell haste conversion.

Capstone · 10/10/10, 2:33 PM

Mechanics questions for 4.0.1:

1. What can seals, AoW, and HoL proc from?

2. What about berserking, TAJ, and Shadowmourne?

3. Is T10 2pc still a DS reset, and if so, does that still proc from autoattacks only?

4. Do we still want slowest weapons possible? (normalized strikes vs. more procs)

5. Have glancing blow or crit suppression mechanics changed?

6. Glyph rankings for DPS?

Feel free to add anything I've missed.

flexbutt · 10/10/10, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Capstone

Mechanics questions for 4.0.1:
3. Is T10 2pc still a DS reset, and if so, does that still proc from autoattacks only?.

This set bonus was changed to 5% increased overall damage. It would be worthless otherwise, as DS no longer has a cooldown.