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Old 11/03/10, 5:27 PM   #886
Shockadin
Glass Joe
 
Shockadin's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis (EU)
Refering to the news on MMO and the changes to DS und SoB, will we use DS on single target? Because there is no notice of a shared CD between DS und CS (like Prot have with HoR and CS) and 60% weapon damage every 3s to 4.5s seems to beat out judgement or at least holy wrath, doesn't it?

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Old 11/03/10, 5:30 PM   #887
Kinmaul
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Illidan
New beta build today!

Retribution
•Sanctity of Battle now also affects Divine Storm.
•Divine Storm no longer uses Holy Power. Now deals 60% weapon damage, costs 5% of base mana, and has a 4.5 sec cooldown.
Blizzard did exactly what they said they were going to do, but 60% weapon damage seems kind of low. How many mobs are going to have to be present to make this worth hitting instead of CS? Does anyone know if each mob hit by DS has a chance to proc DP or is it a flat 40% per cast? If it's based on per mob hit then that changes everything obviously.

Edit:
@Shockadin
The patch notes don't say the cd's are linked, but that is what GC mentioned when talking about this change. Someone with beta access will be able to test this soon.

Last edited by Kinmaul : 11/04/10 at 8:08 AM.

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Old 11/03/10, 6:27 PM   #888
Thumos
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Gul'dan
Originally Posted by Kinmaul View Post
New beta build today!


Blizzard did exactly what they they were going to do, but 60% weapon damage seems kind of low. How many mobs are going to have to be present to make this worth hitting instead of CS? Does anyone know if each mob hit by DS has a chance to proc DP or is it a flat 40% per cast? If it's based on per mob hit then that changes everything obviously.

Edit:
@Shockadin
The patch notes don't say the cd's are linked, but that is what GC mentioned when talking about this change. Someone with beta access will be able to test this soon.
It may not actually be 60%. As was just posted on MMO several abilities now change their weapon damage percentage as you level. So it might be 60% at level 20 and 150% at level 80. Also currently it's one chance to proc DP per cast not per mob.

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Old 11/04/10, 1:31 AM   #889
Raanis
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by Shockadin View Post
Refering to the news on MMO and the changes to DS und SoB, will we use DS on single target? Because there is no notice of a shared CD between DS und CS (like Prot have with HoR and CS) and 60% weapon damage every 3s to 4.5s seems to beat out judgement or at least holy wrath, doesn't it?
Despite it not being mentioned on MMO-Champion, CS and DS do indeed share a CD on the beta, as was the stated intention.

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Old 11/04/10, 7:08 AM   #890
Danath
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Les Sentinelles (EU)
Originally Posted by Thumos View Post
It may not actually be 60%. As was just posted on MMO several abilities now change their weapon damage percentage as you level. So it might be 60% at level 20 and 150% at level 80. Also currently it's one chance to proc DP per cast not per mob.
I am in the beta and I can confirm that, as a level 75 Paladin, it's still 60% weapon damage. The change is good from a philosophical point of view, it does mean that we can use this AoE as soon as needed but the damage needs a bump, at least 20-40% from here.

I was disappointed in a couple of other things. I thought Divine Plea was meant to provide Holy Power to everyone and it would have been very helpful for us too, but in reality it is only through a Protection talent that this can happen.

Anyway, the worst thing actually is about Lay on Hands. In the 13183 Beta Build ( MMO-Champion - Cataclysm Beta - Build 13183 ) , it was specified that Forbearance effect no longer includes Divine Protection (which is true for live as well) AND self-targeted Lay on Hands. However, this is false on live and, as I just found out, false on beta as well, which is disappointing to say the least.

Good things over live include Hammer of Wrath proccing Divine Purpose (this is great, actually) plus a new Crusade talent effect: after killing a target worth either experience or honor points, for the next 15 seconds Holy Light heals for 300% more. At level 75, I have 11k Health Points and it heals me for 13k non-critical...Maybe this could be somewhat lessened, and Lay on Hands should seriously stop causing Forbearance.

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Old 11/04/10, 8:11 AM   #891
Nalien
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Skullcrusher (EU)
It could be possible that DS gets a weapon damage bump @80 and beyond (60% until then), would actually like to hear more from Rets playing on Beta.

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Old 11/04/10, 8:42 AM   #892
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Kinmaul View Post
Blizzard did exactly what they said they were going to do, but 60% weapon damage seems kind of low. How many mobs are going to have to be present to make this worth hitting instead of CS?
DS at 60% seems reasonable at first glance, since CS is at 150%. DS on 1 target is 60%, DS on 2 targets is 120% (plus 2 seals, still should be short of 150% + 1 seal), DS on 3 targets is 180% and it pulls ahead. However, this does not take into effect Crusade. With Crusade CS is actually at (150% * 130%) 195% weapon damage. DS might possibly pull even at 3 if the 2 extra seal procs can match 15% weapon damage (unlikely, to be honest), otherwise it requires a 4th target to even consider using. Increasing it to 65% makes it match CS at 3 targests (65% * 3 = 195%), 70% is probably a better choice.

I do wonder about the fact that with 20 targets it's a ton of "free" AOE considering the cooldown. I rather expect a target limit (even if a largish number like 8). That 20 target scenario (rare, I'll give you) also would provide a boatload of free healing.

Even if it did receive a damage bump at a certain level, it would be undesirable to use while leveling unless you had 4+ targets. It needs an across the board bump (or gain from Crusade).

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 11/04/10, 8:57 AM   #893
Danath
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Les Sentinelles (EU)
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
DS at 60% seems reasonable at first glance, since CS is at 150%. DS on 1 target is 60%, DS on 2 targets is 120% (plus 2 seals, still should be short of 150% + 1 seal), DS on 3 targets is 180% and it pulls ahead. However, this does not take into effect Crusade. With Crusade CS is actually at (150% * 130%) 195% weapon damage. DS might possibly pull even at 3 if the 2 extra seal procs can match 15% weapon damage (unlikely, to be honest), otherwise it requires a 4th target to even consider using. Increasing it to 65% makes it match CS at 3 targests (65% * 3 = 195%), 70% is probably a better choice.

I do wonder about the fact that with 20 targets it's a ton of "free" AOE considering the cooldown. I rather expect a target limit (even if a largish number like 8). That 20 target scenario (rare, I'll give you) also would provide a boatload of free healing.

Even if it did receive a damage bump at a certain level, it would be undesirable to use while leveling unless you had 4+ targets. It needs an across the board bump (or gain from Crusade).
CS (base) is 115% since Beta Build 13221 (MMO-Champion - Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221).
Anyway, DS definitely needs an across the board bump, not only a high level-bound one. Unfortunately I can't post at all on the Beta forums, I login and the system keeps telling that I have no Cataclysm account attached...
I wonder if that's because the forum beta login is technically on US servers and my account is European, although in that case, it would mean no European beta user can provide feedback.

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Old 11/04/10, 10:08 AM   #894
Artius89
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Nalien View Post
It could be possible that DS gets a weapon damage bump @80 and beyond (60% until then), would actually like to hear more from Rets playing on Beta.
I've logged in with my 85 premade and DS it's 60% weapon damage.

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Old 11/04/10, 10:15 AM   #895
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Danath View Post
CS (base) is 115% since Beta Build 13221 (MMO-Champion - Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221).
Anyway, DS definitely needs an across the board bump, not only a high level-bound one. Unfortunately I can't post at all on the Beta forums, I login and the system keeps telling that I have no Cataclysm account attached...
I wonder if that's because the forum beta login is technically on US servers and my account is European, although in that case, it would mean no European beta user can provide feedback.
Eh, you're right. 115% on Beta (150% on live). That means 149.5% with Crusade. 180% on 3 targets beats that handily. That 30% extra should about offset the fact that DS will often be used from the front, thus have some extra attacks avoided due to parry. So DS is fine as-is, barring target rich environments.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 11/04/10, 10:56 AM   #896
Redcape
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Vek'nilash
I did the math on DS and it is worse even at 5 targets. The problem is that CS procs a 3 target seal cleave and 3 target SoC which raises its damage dramatically. At 85 with starter raid gear and normal buffs your SoR CS is going to do roughly 4.8x the damage of DS, so DS pulls ahead *marginally* at 5 targets. However, that is ignoring the fact that CS gives a full Holy Power and DS gives only .4 of one, so I am quite confident that DS is not useful until 7 targets. At 60% DS will only be used in true AOE situations with hordes of mobs, I doubt it would even be worth using in heroics.

At 100% DS would be equal to CS in raw damage at 3 targets, but again the Holy Power issue probably means that DS would only be an improvement at 5 targets. To make DS to be the best button to hit at 4+ targets they either need to make DS generate a Holy Power automatically or raise its damage to the 110-120% range.

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Old 11/04/10, 10:59 AM   #897
Danath
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Les Sentinelles (EU)
Further empiric testing shows that, despite the 235% "increase" claimed (MMO-Champion - Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221) over 225% supposed previous value, Templar's Verdict deals less damage than live.
Hammer of Wrath is also evidently lessened but this can be understood, on live it is vastly exaggerated.
Exorcism does more damage, however maybe some of the three main physical skills (CS, DS & TV) could use some bump. They vastly nerfed our damage and improved the healing beyond any real need...Holy Light had a substantial buff to base, plus Ret can count on Crusade talent too, as 75 I critted 19-20k Holy Light; I think this latest beta tendency should be partially reversed.
I just found that Hammer of Wrath isn't proccing Divine Purpose at all...I filed a ticket for that.

On a sidenote, there are some cosmetic changes to spells: Seal of Truth and Seal of Insight are slightly changed (improved, arguably), the same can be said about Divine Storm which if I am correct has a new sound as well, but the most evident of all probably regards Hammer of Wrath: the energy hitting the target is now red, instead of the usual "sparkling light" color. I'm not sure which one I prefer, to be honest.

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Old 11/04/10, 11:18 AM   #898
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Redcape View Post
I did the math on DS and it is worse even at 5 targets. The problem is that CS procs a 3 target seal cleave and 3 target SoC which raises its damage dramatically. At 85 with starter raid gear and normal buffs your SoR CS is going to do roughly 4.8x the damage of DS, so DS pulls ahead *marginally* at 5 targets. However, that is ignoring the fact that CS gives a full Holy Power and DS gives only .4 of one, so I am quite confident that DS is not useful until 7 targets. At 60% DS will only be used in true AOE situations with hordes of mobs, I doubt it would even be worth using in heroics.

At 100% DS would be equal to CS in raw damage at 3 targets, but again the Holy Power issue probably means that DS would only be an improvement at 5 targets. To make DS to be the best button to hit at 4+ targets they either need to make DS generate a Holy Power automatically or raise its damage to the 110-120% range.
This is more an issue of the seal and Holy Power mechanics rather than DS's damage itself. It clearly should generate Holy Power equal to Crusader Strike. Functioning off of DivPurp is a severe weakness and another dance with the RNG. Causing DS to proc a seal cleave on a "primary" target (the one that currently procs DivPurp? No HP is generated unless you hit a target, so this must be feasible) and then individual procs on additional targets would also resolve the seal issue. It would functionally become CS which hits multiple targets, proccing single seal on each additional target, plus a freebie healing component. One would hope this would be Blizzard's goal. CS for single target, DS for multi-target (probably 3 target breakpoint) and the heal is for flavour and because a talent point should be worth something.

If DS remains this weak, it may be optimal to use 2 points in EfaE to reach Zealotry, then the last optional point used for utility (Divinity, Acts of Sacrifice, hell, even Clarity of Purpose for PvP)..

Edit to clarify: By the talent suggestion in last paragraph, I mean by skipping DS as entirely useless talent.

Last edited by Exemplar : 11/04/10 at 4:47 PM. Reason: Clarity

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 11/04/10, 12:20 PM   #899
sjogren
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Sha'tar (EU)
Originally Posted by Danath View Post
Further empiric testing shows that, despite the 235% "increase" claimed (MMO-Champion - Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221) over 225% supposed previous value, Templar's Verdict deals less damage than live.
That's because TV was hotfixed to 290% (or was it 260%? I don't remember, a lot more than 235% anyway) on live, which obviously doesn't update the tooltips. Beta was changed to the same multiplier but without updating the tooltips, and then brought down to 235% recently along with a tooltip update.

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Old 11/04/10, 1:45 PM   #900
donmc
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Daggerspine
It's worth noting that the recent beta build changed the activation requirement on Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond from more blue than yellow to more blue than red.

Last edited by donmc : 11/04/10 at 2:17 PM.

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