The Retribution Concordance - 4.0.1 - Page 2

purgex · 10/13/10, 4:10 PM

Remember that movement speed is a dps gain. With that said, it is more of a dps gain to be able to control when you can move faster, than a passive movement speed (15%).

To clarify, this is what we are aiming for:

Also, would it be better to add "/stopcasting" to the Crusader Strike macro, incase one presses Exorcism while it isn't instant-cast? I'm finding that a lot of the time i'll accidentally start casting exorcism, thus loosing dps. eg:

#showtooltip Crusader Strike
/stopcasting
/cast Crusader Strike
/startattack

Also,

4. Re: Expertise Cap - bugged? fixed? as is? 10/28/2010 09:30:12 AM PDT

Due to recalibrating expertise for Cataclysm, level 80-83 creatures (which includes bosses) dodge and parry less, so you need less expertise, 23, to be exact. Sorry we didn't announce this. I would classify it as an unintended consequence (though not unknown) and not a desired change on our part.

At level 85, you will need 26 again.

Expertise cap is 23. 13 glyphed.

Rennadrel · 10/13/10, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kellendros

It's an incredible done job Exemplar, I’m impressed with the quality of your post.

I just have a question about statsweight:

Wasn't we supposed to get hit cap > expertise cap > haste soft cap (3 seconds CD on CS). Until that point haste was found to be superior than critical, that at least until yesterday, on this same forum (not topic of course).

Did I miss something regarding haste on the last hours? If I did, could someone please indicate the math behind Haste (pre soft cap) VS Critical?

Something I noticed after the patch was the amount of Crit rating I had unbuffed went down a fair bit, prior to the patch I had 40% then it dropped to about 30% so my guess is the overall value of critical strike rating for the end of Wrath is much lower then it was before. Having 3 second CD on CS would put haste at a much higher value then crit from a gemming standpoint because we are probably getting 1% haste easier then what it would take for 1% crit, which to be honest a 10 strength + 10 crit gem isn't giving you a lot while every point of haste is going to have a larger impact on CS CD's.

Exemplar · 10/13/10, 4:17 PM

Juggling numbers, I've found that reforging allows a lot of finesse in gearing. My present gear is at 8.2 hit (via 3 items) and 29.75 expertise (via 2 items + Glyph). You can now push the limit. If I reforge hit off of one item, and reforge another item to add hit, I can wind up with an overall migration of hit to crit or haste. Expertise I can also lower to 26 by removing on two pieces and adding on another.

Example: I plan to remove 37 expertise rating from one item (adding 37 haste), then add 32 expertise to another (removing 32 haste). Net result, expertise beyond the cap is transformed into 5 haste rating.

End results, with careful juggling nearly every rating of hit or expertise beyond the cap can be converted into another rating. Often you're unable to absolutely min-max - I want more Crit, but it's not possible since the item I'm reforging from Expertise or Hit already has Crit, so I could only add Haste - but nearly every rating point can be squeezed for effective DPS.

Anyone over Hit or Expertise cap (or not currently using Glyph of SoT) should investigate this juggling act on their own gear.

Rennadrel · 10/13/10, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Juggling numbers, I've found that reforging allows a lot of finesse in gearing. My present gear is at 8.2 hit (via 3 items) and 29.75 expertise (via 2 items + Glyph). You can now push the limit. If I reforge hit off of one item, and reforge another item to add hit, I can wind up with an overall migration of hit to crit or haste. Expertise I can also lower to 26 by removing on two pieces and adding on another.

Example: I plan to remove 37 expertise rating from one item (adding 37 haste), then add 32 expertise to another (removing 32 haste). Net result, expertise beyond the cap is transformed into 5 haste rating.

End results, with careful juggling nearly every rating of hit or expertise beyond the cap can be converted into another rating. Often you're unable to absolutely min-max - I want more Crit, but it's not possible since the item I'm reforging from Expertise or Hit already has Crit, so I could only add Haste - but nearly every rating point can be squeezed for effective DPS.

Anyone over Hit or Expertise cap (or not currently using Glyph of SoT) should investigate this juggling act on their own gear.

I actually spent some time and did this earlier today. With the glyph of Seal of Truths, 264 Sanc legs and 277 Fleshrending Gauntlets with 36 expertise reforged on them, I am bang on 26 expertise cap and still at 8.97% hit rating. I would have more haste if I had all BIS but currently have 847 haste rating with 12.71% mastery. I am going to be testing this out in raid tonight and see what I can change around.

cannadrys · 10/13/10, 6:29 PM

Tailoring

Swordguard Embroidery, grants 800 AP for 15 seconds, most likely with a 45 second ICD. This would be an average 267 AP, compared to 176 AP (80 Str * 1.05 Plate Specialization * 1.05 Kings * 2 AP per Str) from other professions. However, this replaces the normal cloak enchant. 90 AP may or may not be greater than 65 Crit to cloak.

In reference to the underlined part.

Going by your chart (str = 1, and crit = 0.26 per item point).

41 Str x 1.10 (kings and plate mastery) x 2 (2 ap per str) = 90.2 AP
So as a rough estimation 90 AP as mentioned in your post is worth the same as 41 Str, or basically 41 DPS ranking.

65 x 0.26 = 16.9 DPS ranking.

Looks like the tailoring enchant is worth a lot more, at least at current stat values.

Unless I'm wrong on this one, it would seem, that tailoring might actually be our top DPS profession.

Sageth · 10/13/10, 7:17 PM

I've done several training dummy tests today to test the different rotations / stats that have been suggested. All my tests consist of doing 4-5 million damage on the Heroic Training Dummy. Being fully hit and expertise capped with the TV, CS and SoT glyphs. I used AW + Zealotry once during each test, both at the same time.

I started with reforging my gear. Crit was supposedly the best stat. With that I got a maximum of 6k dps on a training dummy. I tested this both with the CS > Filler > wait > CS rotation as the CS > Filler > Filler > CS rotation. Using 2 fillers always ended up doing more dps.

After that I reforged to haste. This brought my haste up to 890. Again the CS > Filler > Filler > CS rotation produced more dps, about 3-400 more. My best rotation ended up with me doing about 6750-6800 dps.

Finally I tried to hit the haste-sweet-spot at 1020-1030. I had to get 7 +20 haste gems. Using the most socket bonuses this lead to a trade of 112 strength for 140 haste. This leads to a CS > Filler > CS rotation. My DPS started low but over the millions of damage done it evened out at 6550 dps. The loss of strength did hurt my dps but the rotation at this amount of haste is pretty much the best you can have. To bad it isn't the best for dps.

At 1026 haste and fully selfbuffed CS's cooldown is at 3.15 seconds. Over the 17.5 minutes fighting that 0.15 extra seconds of downtime builds up to 52,5 seconds. In a raid situation the CS cooldown will most likely be 3 seconds.

I did 6.833.143 damage during those 17.5 minutes which is about 6555 dps. With a 3.0 sec cooldown on CS I would have done that amount of damage over 16.6 minutes which is about 6900 dps. But if this will be enough to pull ahead of extra 112 strength and a CS > Filler > Filler > CS rotation I don't know.

• frmorrison · 10/13/10, 7:44 PM

For major glyphs, Divine Protection was bugged on the PTR in that it gives 20% physical and 40% magical (it will be fixed sometime).

For talents, Acts of Sacrifice on Beta is planned to allow you to remove movement slowing effects on yourself with Cleanse. While we still have HoF, having another way to get out of slowing effects could be useful.

For mechanics, you wrote that HoW is a ranged physical attack. HoW works as a ranged special attack with Holy damage that can be deflected if the target is facing you (a deflection is just like a parry).
I have never seen a HoW dodged.

Mattes · 10/13/10, 7:45 PM

Well i also visited our friend, Donald the dummy, quite alot today.

I've gemmed for str/haste in yellow sockets, reforged expertise and hit down to the cap with haste, and ended up with somewhat 890ish haste.
At the dummy it still felt that (even with my 80 latency) the 3,1ish cooldown on cs was somewhat still not low enough and i had the feeling i couldv pushed another ability 0,1 to 0,2s earlier.
So i reforged the rest of my gear (which was exactly ONE item ^^) from crit to haste and right now got something like:

Haste: 914
Crit: 29,8% (BIG SAD FACE)
AP: ~5700 (sry EU Armory is down and i dont find my authenticator right now)

With JotP and 5% Spellhaste this brought down my CS cooldown to somewhat 3,05ish..

The rotation felt _nearly_ fluently...though i think that even there couldve been a minor 0,1s or so i could cast it earlier...which is kind of curious, because in my latency-filled environment a aprx. cd of 3,2s on cs should be sufficient.

Long story short:

Self buffed (BoM) + 5% Spellhaste i ended up doing around 8,4-8,5k DpS for something like 3-4m damage.

Well guess i'll see tomorrow in icc how this haste value plays out in a real raid-environment.

Mewee · 10/13/10, 7:46 PM

Just wanted to contribute with my findings regarding the use of the rebuke macros.

In our raid tonight, I ran with

#showtooltip crusader strike
/cancelaura chaos bane
/startattack
/cast Rebuke
/cast crusader strike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

for all my attacks (cs,tv,exo,judge,hw)

I'm not extremely savvy when it comes to filtering things on WoL parses, When I look over our saurfang kill I tried to deduct exactly how much damage I was gaining from using rebuke on cooldown.

The log can be found here:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The encounter took 2:47 seconds which equals 167 seconds or 16 rebuke uses.

I landed 193 seals (hits+crits) totaling 353.109 damage. That's an average of ~1830 per seal. That means if I used rebuke on cooldown (which I should have with the macros, I don't actually know how to see that in the log), Rebuke would have contributed 29280 total damage over the encounter.

Seeing as I did 2.769.633 (2.77million) damage total, I can calculate that rebuke equalled (29280*100%)/2769633 = 1,06% of my overall dps. Nothing spectacular, kinda like the same gain as minor glyph of sense undead before the patch.

EDIT: found out I could just click on Rebuke to see that I had 17 uses, which would change the calculation to (31110*100%)/2769633 = 1,12%

Nätion · 10/13/10, 7:57 PM

Did you include both SoT and SoC procs in the seal damage?

I came up with it contributing 2.6% damage.

Avitus · 10/13/10, 8:15 PM

Great job setting this up Exemplar, love the concise breakdown.

One minor suggestion:

For the Avenging Wrath + Zealotry macro I would suggest you switch the casts around (or use showtooltip for Zealotry) like this:

#showtooltip
/cast Zealotry
/cast Avenging Wrath

This way the button/macro only lights up when you have 3 HP and Zealotry is guaranteed to activate along with Avenging Wrath, as opposed to having to coordinate with your Holy Power bar and/or risk activating Avenging Wrath while Zealotry fails to cast due to insufficient Holy Power.

Speaking of Holy Power, for those of us who still like to use OmniCC + Buttons (without CLCret or similar), has anyone found a mod that dims/colors Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm if you have less than 3 Holy Power?
Something along the lines of what tullaRange/RedRange do to out of range abilities.
I'm on the look out for a mod like that as it feels way too easy to activate one of those abilities at 1-2 HP as soon as the ability undims, at a massive DPS loss. Failing that, I'll probably attempt to write my own mod.

Mewee · 10/13/10, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by Nätion

Did you include both SoT and SoC procs in the seal damage?

I came up with it contributing 2.6% damage.

I don't believe rebuke procs seal of command. According to the talent tooltip, the command portion is attached to your swings and not to your seal hit. Can anyone confirm?

Nätion · 10/13/10, 8:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mewee

I don't believe rebuke procs seal of command. According to the talent tooltip, the command portion is attached to your swings and not to your seal hit. Can anyone confirm?

See my posts on this page, it does indeed trigger both.
The Way of the Sword: Retribution in Cataclysm

Furiousk · 10/13/10, 8:51 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

(Recommended to be Glyphed mana-free) Rebuke is a must as long as it procs a seal.

I just caught a bug in how I was calculating Inquisition up-time in my spreadsheet (Inq wasn't stealing HP or GCD from TV, so I would get as many TV with or without Inq). Once the bug was fixed, I'm finding Inq is a DPS loss - in ICC gear at L80 (which isn't possible since Inq is L81). I'm pretty sure part of this is due to high haste values and the quantity of CS/TV reducing fewer spellcasts. It will be something for us to examine at L85 in 85 gear. That section is definitely up for review as we gather more data. It's possible Inq is initially good at L85, then as gear increases and we reduce CS CD that we could move to a state where No Inq was superior.

I am not sure what they intended with inquisition quite frankly, our main damaging attacks have no holy damage at all in them anymore. Was the intention to give us a slice and dice/feral fury buff (maintain at all times or its a dps loss) or something else? It would be a no brainer if it were a flat 30% buff to damage. Hopefully as we see more logs we can make a better judgement. Ill do a few more rounds with MR dummy and see what i can come up with.

Kragshot Prime · 10/13/10, 10:04 PM

So the general consensus is that with the new patch, Ret Pallys are going to take a dps hit no matter what, even with reforging our gear to take advantage of the new shift in stat priorities?

I guess the next question is to simply ask, is Consecration even needed now with the new rotation? Yes it does 3k dmg over it's duration, but with its 30 sec CD, does that 3K make up for what you lose in the rotation due to the GCD? I just did a ToC25 and I didn't see a whole lot of difference in my numbers between using Consecrate and skipping it.

Note that I haven't done any reforging as of yet. Before the new patch hit, I was in the process of dropping my hit rating (had way too much).