The Retribution Concordance - 4.0.1 - Page 27

Exemplar · 11/15/10, 8:26 AM

5/0/31 vs 3/2/31 change is minor - less than 100 DPS at high end gear. Greater knowledge of L80 damage/coefficients led to the change.

Based on comparative damage (including a modifier for HP generation producing the next TV and the fact that currently HoW is not part of DivPurp) my spreadsheet says HoW > TV. However, I do not have this priority modeled, so it is possible that prioritizing HoW over TV could have net negative effects (enough less TV and CS to do less total damage). I suspect HoW > TV will be superior, but try not to change the OP until I have verification for/against something.

I'm curious if 4.0.3(not a), which is supposed to be expected this week, will bring some of the minor changes, such as adding HoW to DivPurp and removing Zeal from the GCD (and make it not eat the HP). I do look forward to testing the custom latency to see if we will be able to remove latency or if it's another spell-caster-only-screw-those-melee-folks-with-their-GCD tweak. I'd love to be able to remove the silly "plus twice your latency" business. DPS, gearing, and play should not be altered by something entirely out of control of both Blizzard and the player: latency.

Naididae · 11/15/10, 5:18 PM

* Players may now adjust the local "Lag Tolerance" time for better precision of spell timing. This is an advanced-users-only feature found in the Interface Options (Combat) panel.

Is that the new "latency fix"/spell-queue system? And, at a first glance, should we go for the actual 3s cap (including raid buffs)?
I know nothing has been confirmed, but just from what people know of how it works.

Nätion · 11/16/10, 12:01 PM

One thing to note is that Swordguard Embroidery is now listed on wowhead as 1000 for 15 not 800, which works out to ~333AP with a 45s ICD equivalent to 151 STR. It's listed the same way on MMO-C's database as well, Swordguard Embroidery. 151 str over 65 crit and 130 str over 65 crit/haste seem to make tailoring and LW the best ways to go, no?

Redcape · 11/16/10, 1:26 PM

If the ICD is in fact 45s and if the proc rate is nearly instant then yes, LW/Tailoring would be the best. Until we have that data though we can't judge very well. The easiest way would be for anyone with a beta account that has maxed LW/Tailoring to go hit a dummy to check. Just timestamp the log and see what is the minimum time you can get between procs and that will give us all the data we need to figure it out for sure.

In other enchant news I did some work on Landslide and Avalanche. It looks like Landslide is 1 ppm and ends up being up ~50% of the time. (VERY rough estimate). Avalanche procs off Judgement, SC, TV and autoattack, does not appear to get extra procs from SoC, SoT, SoR, or Censure reapplication. However, it does definitely proc off Censure ticks! It appears to treat those Censure ticks as instant casts for purposes of the proc rate though, as I always found the Censure ticks to generate many less procs than an equivalent number of other attacks. More data on this would be appreciated.

Using the number of procs I found in my tests though it would seem that Landslide wins by a ... landslide. It is worth 450 dps or so while Avalanche is worth only 200. Hurricane is utter trash at 150 dps, though I just assumed it worked the same as Landslide, no extensive testing. My next spreadsheet update will contain this data.

I also modeled Engineering for the glove rocket thingy and it looks to be quite solid, clocking in at around 120 dps if synced with AW. This is very slightly less than the standard 80 Str but is reasonable, especially so if the fight has movement or downtime.

Edit: Changed dps estimates for Eng Gloves, Avalanche. Conclusions not substantially different.

Nätion · 11/16/10, 1:52 PM

Judging by your rough stat values, 2.5 crit will be about equal to 1 str, so 65 crit is equal to about 26 str. A bonus of 80 brings it to 106, times 2*1.05*1.05 is 233.73. 1000/233.73 = 4.2784. 4.2784*15 = 64.1766. So, as long as it procs at least every 64s, it should be as useful and if it procs more often, it will be more useful.

I don't have beta, nor tailoring yet, but would a test of the live version's proc rate suffice? I may be able to get that done. I would assume both ranks would work in a similar fashion.

Redcape · 11/16/10, 2:00 PM

We already know how the live version works, it is a 45s ICD with a very high proc rate. The question is whether or not the beta version works the same way, which requires testing on the beta to confirm.

As a note, I am a buffoon and miscalculated the benefit of Engineering and Avalanche by assuming that Inquisition buffs them. It does not, holy damage only. As such Engineering is actually about as good as 60 Str when used on cooldown (better if the fight duration is just over a multiple of 2 minutes) and Avalanche is even worse, though it is still above Hurricane.

IceDawn · 11/16/10, 2:31 PM

It appears that the current 4.0.3 live version has introduced the Hand of Light bug that was on the beta where you cannot use any holy power abilities without any holy power, even with the proc active.

EDIT: Added Image of Bug on Live 4.0.3

Yfrog Photo : yfrog.com/5xwowscrnshot111610150817j
You can see Hand of Light Clearly active - while the Holy Power Abilities (Templar's Verdict, Divine Storm, Word of Glory) un-lit, and unusable. If you attempt to use those abilities it will just give a "Not Enough Holy Power" error.

Exemplar · 11/16/10, 2:55 PM

Avalanche receives no benefits from external buffs such as CoE (Stormstrike did not benefit a Shaman testing). Not that raid buffs would be sufficient to boost it ahead of Landslide.

A volunteer tester in Beta provided me info that Autoattack, CS, DS, TV, and Holy Wrath (!!?!?) all proc Avalanche. Rebuke does not. I did not think to test Censure, so Redcape's info is very interesting in that regard.

Contrariwise for Berserking (I'm assuming Landslide copies this mechanic, with a high degree of comfort) it is procced by Autoattack, CS, DS, TV, and Rebuke. I tested this myself on live, it's possible it changes on Beta, but unlikely. I had forgotten and have not gone back to test if HW will proc (if so, it gains a little less than 1% in value).

My calculations showed Landslide about 125% of Avalanche, but this was without taking Censure into effect. If Censure applies at the full 5 PPM (based on wielded weapon) rate, then Landslide is only about 116% of Avalanche. Any lower proc rate is a reduced benefit. Regardless, Landslide still wins.

Sorta disappointing, it would have been neat to have 2H wielders use Avalanche and fast dual wielders use Landslide.

If Swordguard uses live mechanics (no reason to assume otherwise, but if Redcape or someone re-tests, I never object) then you get closer to 15/50 effective up-time. This leaves average AP around 300 and an equivalency of 136 Str. Still the single largest boost at 136 Str, slightly edging out LW at 130 (both replace 65 crit enchants).

Toeboe · 11/16/10, 4:31 PM

I did not think that Blizzard had implemented any class changes; however, according to this that would appear to be incorrect. Any validity to this? I am at work and cannot check out the live servers. Scroll to about halfway down for specific tool tip updates concerning Paladins.

EDIT: Upon further investigation it would seem as though the tool tips themselves were the fix.

sjogren · 11/16/10, 4:40 PM

I would assume tooltip changes are just to get the client up to date with the hotfixes.

That the HoL bug went live is rather disconcerting, though

Exemplar · 11/16/10, 5:49 PM

The majority of tooltip changes match my testing on live (I even nailed HoW base numbers precisely, oddly I received base numbers on Exo 3 higher than the new tooltip). Holy Wrath, however, does not. Several of us came to 2154 base damage, while the new tooltip is 2799.

Beckwin · 11/16/10, 8:55 PM

It also seems with the Hand of Light glitch you are unable to use Zealotry even when you have 1/2 Holy Power + HoL, you NEED 3 Holy Power to use Zealotry. At least this is occurring for me.

Naididae · 11/17/10, 10:58 AM

On another note, I didn't notice much of a change with the new custom latency Combat option, I'm assuming it works like it worked before, but more customizable according to latency? On the other hand I play with around 200ms, so it might not change that much for me really.
So, I'm guessing that a 3s + 2x latency is still the way to go for haste cap.

Theck · 11/17/10, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Redcape

In other enchant news I did some work on Landslide and Avalanche. It looks like Landslide is 1 ppm and ends up being up ~50% of the time. (VERY rough estimate). Avalanche procs off Judgement, SC, TV and autoattack, does not appear to get extra procs from SoC, SoT, SoR, or Censure reapplication. However, it does definitely proc off Censure ticks! It appears to treat those Censure ticks as instant casts for purposes of the proc rate though, as I always found the Censure ticks to generate many less procs than an equivalent number of other attacks. More data on this would be appreciated.

I'm not very familiar with cast-time-based proc rate normalization for casters (in fact, if you had a good reference for that mechanic I'd love to look at it). However, I think I may have stumbled across an alternate explanation for the Avalanche proc behavior you observed.

First of all, the rogue forum contains this interesting post about Hurricane mechanics, which are basically:
1 PPM from auto-attacks and certain melee abilities
15% proc chance with 45 second ICD from spells, Deep Wounds, etc.
The two proc sources can be considered independent for our purposes (i.e. the melee proc is unaffected by the spell proc ICD). There's some funny details about procs refreshing and stacking as well, but we'll ignore those for now.

I've already tested Windwalk myself and confirmed that it does not proc off of Censure ticks or applications, at least for protection. So I'm fairly certain it doesn't share the spell proc component of Hurricane. Presumably Landslide is similar based on your testing. That gives us the following model for enchants:

Windwalk: 1 PPM
Landslide: 1 PPM
Hurricane: 1 PPM melee, 15%/45s spell
Avalanche: ?

Just based on your description, the testing of Hurricane, and game design symmetry, I'd hazard a guess that Avalanche works exactly like Hurricane. That would explain why you saw procs from Censure. It also explains the difference in proc rate you observed.

I'd expect one proc from Censure every 45-50 seconds with this model, or between 1.2-1.33 PPM. If the comments on wowhead are to be believed (the comment I'm looking at is by Rouncer, who may be the shaman theorycrafter Rouncer here at EJ), Avalanche is a 5 PPM enchant for melee attacks.

With a 3.8 speed weapon, any given melee-type attack has a 31.7% proc chance, while a Censure tick would be limited to at most a 6.7% chance due to the ICD (using 3 seconds per tick and immediate refresh when the 45s ICD is up).

Does this model line up well with your data? I may take a protection parse of Avalanche this evening or later this week just to convince myself that the Censure triggers you observed aren't due to a ret-specific factor, though I think that's fairly unlikely.

Redcape · 11/17/10, 12:14 PM

Well, that is some very interesting information.

The mechanic you suggest of ticks having a fixed 15% proc rate would be hard to distinguish from mine since instant casts on a 5 ppm mechanic (which is exactly what I observed) should proc 12.5% of the time. Which of the two it is would take some very seriously large logs to determine I expect. However, that does give us a good ballpark to work with for sims at the moment. I don't have a reference for cast time based procs anywhere. I remember it being used back in TBC times as it was part of my spreadsheet back then but I certainly don't have firm evidence that this is how it works now.

I can 100% confirm that Avalanche does not have a spell trigger ICD of 45 seconds. I went and shot HW at some test dummies and got back to back triggers regularly. I also tested with Exorcism and got triggers within 10 seconds of one another. There may be an ICD but it is definitely small if so and my data contains nothing that suggests that one exists.

The tricky thing about Avalanche is what does and does not proc it:

Does:
TV
CS
Autoattack
Judge
Censure (low proc chance)
HW(low proc chance)
Exorcism(low proc chance)

Does not:
HoW
Consecrate

The low proc chances all fit very close to either my 12.5% guess or your 15%. I don't have anything resembling enough data to reliably pick the exact proc rate, but it is clear that the weapon strikes have a much larger number which matches 5ppm mechanics quite well.

As a note about Censure, I am not basing its proc off a parse or analysis. I stacked Censure, walked away from the dummy and watched it proc on one of the remaining dot ticks. This was repeatable, so Censure certainly procs Avalanche. I got my approximate proc rate by beating on the dummy with just autoattack and SoT.