Elitist Jerks 4.0.3a Tanking/Protection Field Manual :: Fordring's Groupies (Updated: Dec 2, 2010)

 10/16/10, 9:46 PM #46 willturnbad Glass Joe   willturnbad Human Paladin   Kel'Thuzad Thanks, I see that now, I should have been looking at putting the relic in. I do have another one I was wondering about. Trying to determine if I should go 102.4 with the block value being 30% now with a chance for critical blocks. I haven't found out the value of a critical block so for now I assumed 30%. If I start with 27.56% dodge 19.72% parry 93.22% unhittable, with SoR proc Then I reforged to get my block to unhittable, ( I over shot it but this is just a math test). I ended with 24.91% dodge 18.82% parry 103.17% unhittable So my dodge + parry, before is 47.28, after is 43.73. This means I am losing 3.55% DR My unhittable went up and over by 9.95% Since that is all block value... 9.95 x 30% = 2.98%DR Assuming I'm looking at this the right way, I don't think I can decide on whether to reforge to 102.4. With out knowing how critical block works since the DR is pretty close. Opinions?
10/17/10, 12:27 AM   #47
Rurahk
Von Kaiser

Shandris
 Originally Posted by willturnbad Thanks, I see that now, I should have been looking at putting the relic in. I do have another one I was wondering about. Trying to determine if I should go 102.4 with the block value being 30% now with a chance for critical blocks. I haven't found out the value of a critical block so for now I assumed 30%. ... Assuming I'm looking at this the right way, I don't think I can decide on whether to reforge to 102.4. With out knowing how critical block works since the DR is pretty close. Opinions?
Regardless of critcial block, from what I understand about being blocked capped, it's not the damage reduction (or it's not only the DR) but it's the estimated health and time to live. If you're not blocked capped, you could get unlucky and not block several attacks in a row, reducing your EH and TTL. In essence, being block capped adds block DR to your health pool - if I understand the theory correctly. Also, don't forget the shield block value meta.[Eternal Earthsiege Diamond] While it's only 1% in Wrath, the Cata version will be 5% SBV Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond.

10/17/10, 2:17 AM   #48
cardnialsyn
Glass Joe

Ravenholdt
 Originally Posted by _sl0t_ Why is CS always listed as a key ability for us? Against the boss dummy, my CS was hitting for about 1.2k (all physical) while my HoR was hitting for about 400 physical and 1k holy. Shouldn't we choose HoR over CS even against single targets?
I am wondering if this might have something to do with the actual weapon damage of the weapon. Since slower speed weapons will have a higher damage than a faster weapon even though the DPS would be the same if as long as the iLevel is the same. With CS being based solely off weapon damage and HotR being based only partially off weapon damage is it possible that with the faster speed weapons that HotR might actually do more damage than CS? I will try to get my hands on a slower weapon to test this out as soon as i can.

10/17/10, 3:33 AM   #49
Darthpred
Glass Joe

Свежеватель душ (EU)
 Originally Posted by Kobor How will it go up for over 40K, raid buff is increasing it that much? Was just trying on quest mobs in icc and without glyph ShoR hit 5K or 10K depend on Sacred Duty (I think) with 3 HoPo. I don't have Crusade for first try, trying more survive talent yet. The Rule of Law increase its crit even more, or if have Sacred Duty buff then RoL is not helping in its crit? Did I miss something that increase its damage to that high?
It scales with AP (hit on 120% of AP with 3 HoPo) and it this way it gets large benefit from Vengeance.
Lets say you get 3k AP unbuffed. SotR will hit for 3.6k.
Now lets look at this in raid on boss fight. You gain 5% of incoming damage as AP up to 10% of your maximum health. Lets say you got 85k hp with ICC buff. 10% is 8.5k. So your AP will become 3+8.5=11.5k after reasonable time in fight. 120% of that is 13.8k. This is 3.83 times harder hit. I didn't count such things as BoM, BoK and other +stat, +AP and +damage buffs (+damage portion of ICC buff for example). So with those increases SotR may hit up to ~24-26k non critical. Crits will be ~48-52k or so.

10/17/10, 6:22 AM   #50
Nakari
Piston Honda

Orc Hunter

Destromath (EU)
 Originally Posted by d503 *In a raid environment with a spell hit debuff applied. More specifically, when Melee hit capped, you have a total of 15.5% spell hit (including our 6% bonus). You still need a bit more to cap taunt, unfortunately.
There are no spell hit debuffs anymore.

Also, the hit rating cap in the opening post (263) is no longer correct, the rating conversions changed a bit with 4.0. The new melee hit rating cap is 246.

 10/17/10, 10:29 AM #51 Daurs Glass Joe   Insaneclown Draenei Shaman   Sylvanas (EU) Why does Judge come infront of AS in your priority list? Yes, the first time its probably better to get the debuffs / buffs up, but they last 1 minute / 20 seconds / 10 seconds (mana really isnt an issue at all atleast at 80), so it's not nescessary to use it every CD or even close to it. Avengers shield, atleast for me, does over double the threat than what judgement does, also Grand crusader procs go to waste more often if you preferr judge over AS. Has anyone simmed this or what is the assumption that judge is better than AS based on?
 10/17/10, 10:33 AM #52 talchas Von Kaiser   talchas Troll Mage   Scarlet Crusade Yes it has been simmed, see theck's post over on maintankadin: Rotation Simulation. My understanding is that AS>J tends to make clashes in the long run and end up with you having more empty GCDs (although not by much).
 10/18/10, 12:50 PM #53 Kasi Soda Popinski   Retired Tauren Death Knight   No WoW Account I think the main idea is that it is a 939 rotation and thus you need 3 things to settle around the crusader strike/HotR. One should always be judging, given the buff it gives to SotR. One as well should always be AS because of the huge damage/threat it does. The third of course is obviously SotR. However due to the cooldown of AS you will only be able to get in a consecrate or HW every other cycle. Then you have to factor in GC procs. Those will allow one to use more AS at the expense of HW or Cons. Do that because the damage and threat is vastly higher. Theck has figured out the math, but judgement should never be skipped because of the damage/threat bonus it gives shield. The thing that throws things for a loop though is Hammer of Wrath. Single target the damage on it is insane, and if the mob is living under 20% for a decent amount of time it is definitely worth it to do it on cooldown. SotR still hits harder though so one should still judge, but in a single target situation HoW should certainly replace AS. Even with the single target major glyph HoW will still hit a lot harder.
 10/18/10, 1:44 PM #54 Sahas Glass Joe     Chunes Blood Elf Paladin   Azgalor As I understand it, J > As for three reasons: Sacred Duty procs, JotJ for mana refills and attack speed reduction. SD procs contribute a rather large chunk of threat when ShoR is used, so even though you can contrive a pretty rare situation where you don't care about incoming damage and mana is not an issue, back to back GrC procs shouldn't be taken over Judgement if only for taking SD procs into account. This is all based on a single target scenario assumption. I regularly prioritize GrC procs on aoe packs with unglyphed AS. Last edited by Sahas : 10/18/10 at 3:48 PM. Reason: Accuracy/Veracity
10/18/10, 2:20 PM   #55
Khaelarys
Piston Honda

Lightninghoof
 Originally Posted by Sahas As I understand it, J > As for three reasons: Sacred Duty procs, JotJ for mana refills and attack speed reduction. Assuming you don't care about reducing incoming damage or mana, it would be fine to prioritize AS (especially glyphed) over judgement, however in reality, mana and survivability are concerns ,so it's best to put judgement first. Beyond that, SD procs contribute a rather large chunk of threat when ShoR is used, so even though you can contrive a pretty rare situation where you don't care about incoming damage and mana is not an issue, back to back GrC procs shouldn't be taken over Judgement if only for taking SD procs into account. This is all based on a single target scenario assumption. I regularly prioritize GrC procs on aoe packs with unglyphed AS.
Are they really a concern yet? I adapted clcRet to work for prot, I do have better threat when I changed my priority from J > AS to AS > J. Mana for me, and my healers, just doesn't seem to be much of an issue yet.

 10/18/10, 4:08 PM #56 Alterra Glass Joe   Alterra Blood Elf Paladin   Dunemaul A quick note to update: Ratings requirements to cap melee hit and dodge-cap expertise have changed in 4.0.1 from WotLK and has been tested here. Hit has gone down to 246 rating to cap for melee. Expertise is currently at 172 rating to cap for dodge. Last edited by malthrin : 10/18/10 at 4:18 PM.
 10/19/10, 9:59 AM #58 Theck Don Flamenco     Theck Human Paladin   Tichondrius Just a couple comments for you Wrathblood: ShoR is actually cast every 9 seconds, not 10.5 (you mentioned this when you noted that the ShoR glyph is worth about 1k TPS): CS-X-CS-X-CS-ShoR-(repeat) I'm not sure if this was just a typo though, since 1k TPS roughly matches the estimates I get by looking at my parses. I should also note that the rotation isn't actually 9 seconds, it's a little longer due to ShoR avoids. If you cap hit and expertise (hard-cap) that will bring it down to 9 seconds. Below either of the caps the rotation gets a little longer, though in practice this is really only about 10-15% of a GCD (and thus less than 200 ms). Another thought for the WoG rotation is that you wouldn't have to prioritize Judgement as highly, since SD procs are irrelevant. So you might be able to narrow the gap a little with greater utilization of Grand Crusader procs.
 10/19/10, 10:58 AM #59 Wrathblood Don Flamenco     Wrathblood Blood Elf Paladin   Drenden Thanks for the comments from folks, much appreciated. It was suggested that the proc rate on SoI might be a fair bit higher than I'm assuming since its a 2.6 speed weapon. Has anyone tested its mechanics in Cata? I hunted around a bit and was surprised to not be able to find anything. I did a few brief tests but it was only to ballpark the proc level. Really need to put in a couple thousand swings plus testing the specials to be confident and I keep hoping that someone else has already done it. Theck, You're of course correct on the rotation length. I was fiddling with that paragraph last and my brain betrayed me, telling me I had forgotten to add in another GCD, when I had done the math assuming a 9 second rotation time. Your point on rotations actually being longer due to latency and avoidance is a good point which I entirely failed to account for (other than generally recognizing it would be an issue with EG procs). Making SD irrelevant is a tricky one. Certainly, downgrading J makes it less costly to use GC and EG procs, but I start running into conceptual problems as to what constitutes "sufficient" threat. The impact of SD on threat generation is ginormous (I have SD's contribution to threat as being only a little less than WoG's total threat generation) which is part of the reason the gap in threat between SHoR and WoG is so gigantically ginormous. I would assume Blizzard wants to keep threat relevant, but ShoR is such a huge chunk of threat that with the current implementation of Vengeance, its hard to see how you could keep it relevant and swap out SHoR for WoG. I strongly suspect that Vengeance is going to get nerfed pretty hard or perhaps its scaling with certain abilities, but we'll have to see what form those changes take, or even if they occur. My suspicion is that Blizz will bring Vengeance in line, so the real question ends up being: how do we tweak to get the most survivability boost at the least threat cost? Obviously you can lead off with SHoR when threat is questionable and switch to WoG when things are firmer, but what I'm trying to figure out now is: which trade-offs are the most efficient? Trading away SD would help a pure WoG build, but the alternative use for those talent point would be something awful like Arbiter of the Light. As a result you really wouldn't have to cast ShoR very many times for the benefit of SD to justify those talent points especially when the value would likely be delivered at a time when threat was at a premium rather than evenly spread over the fight. On the other hand, if you're over the soft exp cap already thus somewhat reducing the cost of losing glyph of SoT, then swapping from SoT to SoI looks surprisingly attractive plus frees up a glyph slot for SoI or perhaps WoG. Edit - Grammar, comprehensibility, etc. Last edited by Wrathblood : 10/19/10 at 11:06 AM.
 10/19/10, 11:22 AM #60 Theck Don Flamenco     Theck Human Paladin   Tichondrius Oh, I wasn't suggesting that we drop Sacred Duty as a talent. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought your WoG calculation replaced every ShoR with WoG. In that case, Sacred Duty isn't doing anything, and prioritizing Judgement over AS loses a lot of its potency. In other words: keep the talent for sure, but consider prioritizing AS over Judgement if you've switched into "survival mode" and are just chain-casting WoG every 9 seconds as your holy power dump. If you're alternating between WoG and ShoR, I'd expect that J>AS is still worthwhile. You could even imagine choosing your finisher based on it - finish with ShoR if you have an SD proc and WoG if you don't. Anyway, I have no clue if AS>J will net you an actual increase in a WoG-only rotation. It still has the potential to create empty GCDs, which is one of the reasons it falls behind in the ShoR rotation (SD being the other major reason). But without SD propping up your damage, I wouldn't be surprised if GC procs are enough to make up for the empty GCDs you can't fill with J/HW/Cons.

 Elitist Jerks 4.0.3a Tanking/Protection Field Manual :: Fordring's Groupies (Updated: Dec 2, 2010)