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Old 10/23/10, 7:22 PM   #16
Noules
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Onyxia
Originally Posted by Sicarri View Post
Between Bloodlust and DB/EG procs (and potentially the haste proc trinkets that you may wind up using at first), it's difficult to be able to say that having more haste than is needed to fit X spells in between HS's would wind up being relatively meaningless. I've only healed about half the beta raids, and those only on 10m, so my experience is lacking to a point, but the difference between hitting HS the moment it comes up and having to wait a second because you're casting an HL is relatively minor. There are, of course, exceptions - it's entirely fight mechanic dependent. Anyway, my point is that your heals don't need to be completely based around your HS CD, and that the extra haste is incredibly useful from my admittedly limited experience with raiding on beta.
Well, delaying one HS one second is not that big a deal, no, at least in the grand scheme of things - but if you delay it one second each time, you essentially lose 16% of your Holy Shocks (or more accurately replace it with something else). You're quite correct in that the analysis is not easy due to all the possible haste effects you can have going at any given time - most or all of which stack with each other - and the procs we now have to deal with that change our rotation.

However, the big qualitative observation is that haste does not work as a flat healing improvement because it interacts with our rotation if we're using Holy Shock. It's probably true that the haste benefit from DF is never zero, though, assuming it's used properly (that is, you don't end up picking a bad rotation due to the added haste). For non-TOR though I believe the haste component is always a HpM loss unless it saves you a DL(reasoning: number of WOG/HS is constant while HL count increases); for TOR it should be HpM gain as well (number of WOG scales with HL).

I'm not necessarily suggesting that we -must- work around the HS CD with our haste values - just that the HS w/ CD is the only consistent heal we have that doesn't scale with haste (HR/LoD being the other major ones, but more situational). In particular if we didn't have the HS CD, haste really would be a straight HpS increase in single target situations. Since it's the only outlier, it's natural to attract a lot of attention (everything else is more easily understood).

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Old 10/25/10, 8:45 PM   #17
CrazyScot
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kilrogg (EU)
All comments and bits are highly appreciated folks, I will update the OP today with the bits added so far.

I apologise for the initial title, it was intended as a personal joke and somehow I decided to leave it as the post title, this has now been changed.
Most sections aren't complete and a few of the posts made are on my list of things to add or change, this will be done over the course of the next two or three days as I get to grips with my new job.

Content:

The haste section of the OP is going to probably become the largest part of the entire thread over the coming months in truth, for ToR based healing haste will always be a benefit as the use of Holy Shock becomes less important for us; we can use it instead for throwing instants to raid members taking damage or as a small burst on another heal, keeping it on cooldown will not be as important as when we're healing in a non-ToR style. Complications and the main discussion is going to come from non-ToR healing where keeping HS on cooldown as much as possible seems like it will be important, this of course depends completely on the mana situation we'll be facing in hard-modes.

Last edited by CrazyScot : 10/25/10 at 9:06 PM.

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Old 10/26/10, 10:09 AM   #18
Fizzlebeard
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Haomarush (EU)
Originally Posted by CrazyScot View Post
The haste section of the OP is going to probably become the largest part of the entire thread over the coming months in truth, for ToR based healing haste will always be a benefit as the use of Holy Shock becomes less important for us
But Shock costs less and heals for more than a Holy Light. So at least in early content, when mana is most of our concerns, casting Shock on CD will be a benefit even for a ToR style. Depending on the increase in mana-regen when gearing up in T11 and further and the amount of Divine Light we can/must cast, Shock might take a step back. But as long as Holy Light is our primary heal, Shock seems more efficient in all circumstances.

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Old 10/27/10, 3:20 PM   #19
LPrime
Glass Joe
 
LPrime's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Fizzlebeard View Post
But Shock costs less and heals for more than a Holy Light. So at least in early content, when mana is most of our concerns, casting Shock on CD will be a benefit even for a ToR style. Depending on the increase in mana-regen when gearing up in T11 and further and the amount of Divine Light we can/must cast, Shock might take a step back. But as long as Holy Light is our primary heal, Shock seems more efficient in all circumstances.
You are absolutely correct in the sense that by itself Holy Shock is better then Holy Light and mana will never be a consideration because even in pre-raid gear we have enough spirit for both of them to be virtually Free (In case of Holy Light - by the time you finished casting the 2nd HL the cost of the first one has been refunded), but the timing of its use should be dictated by situation more then our "rotation". If you have 2 HoPo and there is no raid damage to be healed, would it not make sense to just throw out another HL on our beacon target to generate that 3 HoPo instead of using HS and saving the CD if its going to become needed or if we have to move?

ToR style healing as I understand it is - HL* on beacon target, HS and WoGo on raid as needed.

* Substitute with DL when required.

Originally Posted by Noules View Post
Divine Favor is haste, though, and haste doesn't necessarily work well due to HS CD being fixed.
But haste greatly benefits our Holy Radiance output. DF looks to be made for HR.

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Old 10/31/10, 9:04 AM   #20
CrazyScot
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kilrogg (EU)
In the last couple of weeks things have changed pretty seriously for me away from the game, my company went bust and it has lead to me now moving from the UK to Australia; I've discussed it with Malthrinn and I think that it would be best if I gave the project of writing/maintaining the Holy Paladin compendium to someone else with the ability to do it justice. If you are interested please send a pm to Malthrinn; any details of the post you'd be interested in (such as the editing) can be found by attempting to quote the original post.

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Old 11/05/10, 6:48 PM   #21
Bisley
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Runetotem
Originally Posted by CrazyScot View Post
[Glyph of Beacon of Light] - This glyph increases the duration of Beacon of Light by 30 seconds. Beacon on the beta has currently been increased to a 5 minute duration with no mention of a glyph change, meaning this glyph is no longer the best glyph for us to be using but now just makes for a very strong glyph for fights where you don't need it otherwise.
On beta, the Glyph of Beacon of Light is now "Your Beacon of Light costs no mana." which makes a lot more sense considering the longer base length of the spell.

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Old 11/06/10, 2:42 AM   #22
LorDC
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ревущий фьорд (EU)
If BoL mana cost is still same as earlier then new version of glyph don't make much sense too. It is practically free now.

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Old 11/06/10, 3:11 AM   #23
Larenitis
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
<TG>
Arthas
Since the new beta build our Light of Dawn AE has been changed back to using holy power.

Glyph of Light of Dawn: Light of Dawn can now affect 1 additional target.

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Old 11/06/10, 4:00 AM   #24
Venthos
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Turalyon
Since we'll be stacking Spirit to a fairly large amount, wouldn't there be a point where we would only need one point in Enlightened Judgements? Or will 50% not be enough, even with the larger amount of Spirit we'll get, plus using some hybrid gems or enchants?

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Old 11/06/10, 5:52 AM   #25
Artius89
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Venthos View Post
Since we'll be stacking Spirit to a fairly large amount, wouldn't there be a point where we would only need one point in Enlightened Judgements? Or will 50% not be enough, even with the larger amount of Spirit we'll get, plus using some hybrid gems or enchants?
Since the first set of premades (the one with only heroics gear) i was melee hitcapped with just 1 point in it, with a large margin of overcap. 2 point in Enlightened Judgements are just a waste if you want to be capped only for your Judgments.

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Old 11/06/10, 9:35 AM   #26
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by Artius89 View Post
Since the first set of premades (the one with only heroics gear) i was melee hitcapped with just 1 point in it, with a large margin of overcap. 2 point in Enlightened Judgements are just a waste if you want to be capped only for your Judgments.
If we don't take 2/2 Enlightened Judgements then we have to put a point in Paragon of Virtue to get to 30 (all other available talents being fundamentally useless to a PVE healer). The jury's still out on this one, but according to Noules 1/2 Paragon is only a 0.5% throughput increase. I would rather have the flexibility in positioning you gain from having an additional 5 yards range on Judgement - which for my money is the main reason to be taking points in the talent to begin with.

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Old 11/06/10, 10:41 AM   #27
Artius89
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
If we don't take 2/2 Enlightened Judgements then we have to put a point in Paragon of Virtue to get to 30 (all other available talents being fundamentally useless to a PVE healer). The jury's still out on this one, but according to Noules 1/2 Paragon is only a 0.5% throughput increase. I would rather have the flexibility in positioning you gain from having an additional 5 yards range on Judgement - which for my money is the main reason to be taking points in the talent to begin with.
Indeed, i was only considering the hit part of the talent, considering that the question was only about the necessity or not to take 2/2 to be capped for our Judgments.

In regard of Paragon of Virtue, you have to consider that now it lowers the cd on Hand of Sacrifice too, making it a stronger tank cd. In my testing with normal modes in beta (i didn't have the chance to try heroic modes, not yet) i didn't see a lot of tank damage, however if this is different in heroic it could be a very strong choice.

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Old 11/06/10, 1:25 PM   #28
Lovella
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
If we don't take 2/2 Enlightened Judgements then we have to put a point in Paragon of Virtue to get to 30 (all other available talents being fundamentally useless to a PVE healer). The jury's still out on this one, but according to Noules 1/2 Paragon is only a 0.5% throughput increase.
I want to clear something up there about the overall 0.5% throughput increase, because I think it is a huge misconception to be thinking about having a shorter cooldown on a healing increase spell as having an "overall" effect. Dare I say we should not be bothering to do the maths on such a thing? Personally, I'd say we should be relating the time of cooldown to what kind of damage that is incoming during a particular time in a fight.
To give a crude example - Does a 2 minute avenging wrath cooldown line up with the fact that the boss does a huge aoe every 2 minutes - "YES", Does a 3 minute avenging wrath cooldown line up with the fact that the boss does a huge aoe every 2 minutes - "NO".

As holy we are healers, not dps. DPS classes fundementally burn their damage/throughput cooldowns as many times as they can during a fight in order to increase the "overall" effect of their DPS over the entire duration of the boss fight. It does not particularly matter how fast damage is being done for the overall duration of the fight provided they can sustain it at a reasonably high level.
(This is of course excluding the fact there may be adds in the fight, but you'll still want a DPS class being able to sustain his dps at a certain level throughout the fight regardless)

As healers, the amount of healing we put out is situational to the amount of damage incoming from a boss. There are times where damage is being taken only by the tank, and there are times where the raid is taking extremely high amounts of damage. You can't put an overall number on cooldowns such as avenging wrath because that is totally opposite to the way that healers heal. We don't burn things like avenging wrath on cooldown just to get an overall 0.5% healing increase throughout the fight because there may be almost no damage coming in at that particular time, in which case the extra 20% would be completely wasted. What you CAN put a number on is being able to say, will that cooldown enable me to keep up with the amount of damage that is incoming at that particular time (say if there's a huge amount of damage in those 20 seconds). In a vast amount of cases, having a shorter cooldown on such a spell as avenging wrath gives us a greater opportunity to increase our throughput when it's needed at that particular point in time.

~

As for your point on enlightened judgements, i'm beginning to think that having extra range on judgement will be more valued when cataclysm comes, since it looks like we will probably be the most position-dependant healers out of the 4 healing classes. Holy Radiance heals from a 20 yard radius from where we are standing. Light of dawn is a cone effect heal and needs to be carefully positioned. Other healers have the ability to place their aoe radius heal whereever they like, although saying that, theirs are static, so in that regard we have the advantage ;>

~

And finally going back to Noules point on Divine Plea; I'm sure you understand that the concept of having to use divine plea alongside avenging wrath was down to the fact that we had to heal at maximum throughput for long periods at a time. Anything less and the tank was extremely likely to drop dead within the space of a matter of seconds. The developers have stated that there won't be situations in cata where a tank could get globalled within the space of a heal, it seems more likely that the periods in which we use divine plea at low periods of damage where nobody is at risk of dying will be separated from the periods in which we'll have to push healing using avenging wrath.

I'd like to end (ironically) with the fact that using avenging wrath in conjunction with divine plea would give us a lower overall throughput than by using both separately! ;D

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Old 11/06/10, 4:10 PM   #29
Noules
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Onyxia
Originally Posted by Lovella View Post
I want to clear something up there about the overall 0.5% throughput increase, because I think it is a huge misconception to be thinking about having a shorter cooldown on a healing increase spell as having an "overall" effect.

...

As holy we are healers, not dps. DPS classes fundementally burn their damage/throughput cooldowns as many times as they can during a fight in order to increase the "overall" effect of their DPS over the entire duration of the boss fight. It does not particularly matter how fast damage is being done for the overall duration of the fight provided they can sustain it at a reasonably high level.
This is actually the reason why it's not really clear 2m Avenging Wrath is much of a benefit. If the encounter design doesn't require particularly intense healing at specific intervals, the value of shorter CD on AW is greatly reduced. It's easy to imagine a scenario where PoV's value is minimal - what if the intense periods occur every 3 minutes? The shorter cooldown is only beneficial if you're actually taking advantage of the shorter cooldown, and unlike DPS, we can't easily shuffling high healing periods with low healing periods (though it should be easier in Cata than WOTLK). The 0.5% throughput figure is considering 'featureless' healing (i.e. no intervals where particularly strong healing is required) because the results are otherwise completely dependent on the encounter specifics. Now, it's clear that 2m AW is always >= to 3m AW, but that's sort of a trivial fact. The real issue is whether or not PoV is better use of talent points to the alternatives.

Originally Posted by Lovella View Post
And finally going back to Noules point on Divine Plea; I'm sure you understand that the concept of having to use divine plea alongside avenging wrath was down to the fact that we had to heal at maximum throughput for long periods at a time. Anything less and the tank was extremely likely to drop dead within the space of a matter of seconds. The developers have stated that there won't be situations in cata where a tank could get globalled within the space of a heal, it seems more likely that the periods in which we use divine plea at low periods of damage where nobody is at risk of dying will be separated from the periods in which we'll have to push healing using avenging wrath.

I'd like to end (ironically) with the fact that using avenging wrath in conjunction with divine plea would give us a lower overall throughput than by using both separately! ;D
I'm not sure what this is addressing. I made the observation earlier that if at all possible, we would not want to combine AW with Divine Plea. That was in response to the argument that PoV might be useful precisely because it allows us to sync Plea with AW. It should be noted though that while Plea shouldn't be combined with AW, it makes a lot of sense to use AW immediately after the Plea to catch up with any deficit. Given longer time-to-live expected in Cata, that sort of strategic CD use may be viable (and would make PoV more attractive).

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Old 11/07/10, 3:57 AM   #30
Charybdis
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
Something to note about Avenging Wrath is it can be considered a mana-saving cooldown. The extra 20% might be enough to let us use Holy Light instead of Divine Light for instance.

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