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Old 11/07/10, 7:49 PM   #31
Nitz
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Ysondre (EU)
The flexibility of positioning with 2/2 Enlightened Judgements instead of 2/2 Paragon of Virtue is pretty moot in my opinion because what's determining our positioning is the raid position and particularly the tank's who more often than not is on the other side of the boss while we healers are in its back, and 35y are more than enough to reliably hit the bosses who also are usually pretty huge. And 2/2 Paragon of Virtue doesn't only stave cooldown off AW but also 20 seconds off Divine Providence. Coming from a druid, I'm not too used to Paladin healing (mainly the use of throughput cooldowns) but I do know that Barkskin is a very good button to push, and that pushing it more often is always a good thing.

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Old 11/08/10, 2:06 PM   #32
Slider_1128
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Feathermoon
Originally Posted by Handyhoof View Post
This should give us a starting point for a talent guide.

The min/max build I'm seeing is this:
The World of Warcraft Armory
I completely agree with this build. That being said I wanted to get more input on the Aura Mastery Talent. I have it now, due to lack of options. Since to-date I have never used it, one would think that point could be put somewhere else. Even 1 point in PoV would be better use if I'm actually using Avenging Wrath.

Guess my question is this: Does anyone find themselves using this ability? Not just in an "might as well pop it here", but finding it useful in different situations? The 6 sec duration of this would seem its only good for boss Abilities that are 1 use direct dmg. Right now, I could see its use right before Blistering Cold on Sindragosa, but thats avoidable if people know what they are doing.

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Old 11/08/10, 3:00 PM   #33
Nitz
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Ysondre (EU)
I use it on Lana'thel (air phase), Sindragosa (p3, on the breath), and Lich King's Infest ability. It definitely helps, but I think it might have much more of an impact without the 30% buff.

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Old 11/08/10, 4:44 PM   #34
Lovella
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by Slider_1128 View Post
I completely agree with this build. That being said I wanted to get more input on the Aura Mastery Talent. I have it now, due to lack of options. Since to-date I have never used it, one would think that point could be put somewhere else. Even 1 point in PoV would be better use if I'm actually using Avenging Wrath.

Guess my question is this: Does anyone find themselves using this ability? Not just in an "might as well pop it here", but finding it useful in different situations? The 6 sec duration of this would seem its only good for boss Abilities that are 1 use direct dmg. Right now, I could see its use right before Blistering Cold on Sindragosa, but thats avoidable if people know what they are doing.
Like Nitz said, it would help to begin to see the uses of aura mastery if the 30% ICC buff which makes encounters trivially easy, wasn't in place. I would go as far to say with the current state of things, it's completely not needed whatsoever in order to defeat any encounter in ICC.

However, I would say the encounters in Ulduar are probably the best place for showcasing the uses Aura mastery as it was so useful in mitigating a large number of encounter mechanics, and this was when raid damage wasn't as easy to heal. I won't go into too much detail about the uses of aura mastery but most notably -
Freya (HM) - during silence phase you could pop AM with conc-aura and be able to heal uninterrupted for that period. When blowing up adds, AM could have been used with fire aura to lessen raid burst damage.
Mimiron second phase, raid wide fire damage while having to move in a circle at the same time. Incredible for mitigating damage in periods where healing is less due to movement.
Hodir HM - when pushing dps by cutting healers, AM on frozen blows mitigated a significant amount of damage which allowed the number of healers to be cut.
Yogg Saron (HM) - to prevent interrupt from Deafening Roar - this was crucial as tank damage was high and stopping to avoid interruption was putting the tank at risk.

Come cataclysm, when damage to the raid actually matters, I can see this ability making a huge comeback, since mitigation is arguably just as good if not better, than actual healing.

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Old 11/08/10, 7:59 PM   #35
DiamondTear
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Nitz View Post
The flexibility of positioning with 2/2 Enlightened Judgements instead of 2/2 Paragon of Virtue is pretty moot in my opinion because what's determining our positioning is the raid position and particularly the tank's who more often than not is on the other side of the boss while we healers are in its back, and 35y are more than enough to reliably hit the bosses who also are usually pretty huge. And 2/2 Paragon of Virtue doesn't only stave cooldown off AW but also 20 seconds off Divine Providence. Coming from a druid, I'm not too used to Paladin healing (mainly the use of throughput cooldowns) but I do know that Barkskin is a very good button to push, and that pushing it more often is always a good thing.
In 25 man raids in beta, both heroic and normal, I've never found myself needing more than 25 yds on my judgment even while judging often for mana. You'll want to be quite close to melee to use HR and LoD anyways, so you'll probably be close to the boss.

Speaking from experience, Paragon of Virtue is a very useful talent and so is aura mastery.

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Old 11/09/10, 3:58 AM   #36
Artius89
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by DiamondTear View Post
In 25 man raids in beta, both heroic and normal, I've never found myself needing more than 25 yds on my judgment even while judging often for mana. You'll want to be quite close to melee to use HR and LoD anyways, so you'll probably be close to the boss.

Speaking from experience, Paragon of Virtue is a very useful talent and so is aura mastery.
Exactly, and a lot of bosses rely on moments of group up to share the damage of X ability, plus almost all bosses have big hitbox, so it's very rare to be so far away from the boss. I didn't see very large rooms, and even in the bigger one i was almost always between ranged and melee to hit both with HR.

Also things changed from last (or last 2 - i didn't raid in beta for 2 weeks) beta build, almost all bosses were significantly buffed, expecially in regard of tank damage, witch was really pretty pathetic before, and 1.5 min hand of sacrifice was really nice.

PS: i'm writhing this because no one reported the change on this forum, since this patch Holy Radiance seems to heal less the more player it hit.

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Old 11/09/10, 8:05 AM   #37
Shldnhearth
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Alterac Mountains
I've had no problems on live even with only an extra 5 yards on my judgements. It's not hard to find range to judge once every minute, are we going to be judging that much more at 85? (I realize we will be getting mana return from it).

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Old 11/09/10, 11:08 AM   #38
amagee
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Demon Soul
When it comes down to it, the whole PoV vs. EJ argument is going to be a matter of either personal preference or boss mechanics. Though I am unfortunately unable to get into the Beta (silly school), I have found that PoV is helpful when doing things like achievements where we may want to use fewer healers. In Cata, I can imagine this being the same. It won't be a first choice but I'll always be ready and willing to switch if need be.

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Old 11/09/10, 2:26 PM   #39
Hulabaloon
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Nordrassil (EU)
Originally Posted by Slider_1128 View Post
I completely agree with this build
Why not move a point from PotI to PoV and potentially another from IJ to make 2/2 PoV? Is having a 40 yard judgement really so worthwhile?

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Old 11/09/10, 3:09 PM   #40
Shakaros
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Xavius (EU)
Originally Posted by Hulabaloon View Post
Why not move a point from PotI to PoV and potentially another from IJ to make 2/2 PoV? Is having a 40 yard judgement really so worthwhile?
A lot of things not mentioned in this thread has happened over the past couple of weeks that are fairly substantial. One of them being that PotI now doesnt trigger when you heal yourself, however when it does trigger (by casting heals on others) the heal is transferred to the beacon! This has together with the new version of Light of Dawn (transfers to beacon aswell), has made beacon healing jump considerably up relative to the other healing spells.

So cutting a point from PotI seems unneccesary to me. We should talk about some of the numerous other changes and im gonna post some more when time allows (beta raiding right now).

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Old 11/09/10, 4:45 PM   #41
nikitabanana
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ysondre
Originally Posted by amagee View Post
When it comes down to it, the whole PoV vs. EJ argument is going to be a matter of either personal preference or boss mechanics. Though I am unfortunately unable to get into the Beta (silly school), I have found that PoV is helpful when doing things like achievements where we may want to use fewer healers. In Cata, I can imagine this being the same. It won't be a first choice but I'll always be ready and willing to switch if need be.

I disagree. PoV means a shorter cooldown on Divine Protection. Historically, most raid damage is magical - so having a 40 second Divine Protection with the DP glyph (takes the 20% physical away and gives you another 20% magic reduction for 40% total) turns out to be a huge chunk of mitigated damage on an extremely short cooldown.

In addition, you end up with enough hit from spirit with 1/2 EJ, which in my opinion is the main reason to take it. The spare point that we have after all healing talents are taken can be thrown into IJ for 10 yards vs. the 5 yard/weak heal addition that you'd get for 2/2 EJ.

PoV is possibly one of the best utility talents in our tree. We can Hand of Sac more often with the increased health pools without worrying about dying due to Divine Shield being on CD. Avenging Wrath is a direct throughput increase as well. It's hard to argue against taking the talent when the competing point gives five yards to a judgement and a small heal when you judge.

Edit: Don't base the usefulness of PoV over some imaginary throughput value. If you're looking at the healing increase when AW is up - you can't average it over the entire fight. You use AW to get burst at that point in time. Averaging things like mana returned by various procs makes sense. Averaging HPS increases of an on use ability is a silly notion.

Last edited by nikitabanana : 11/09/10 at 4:56 PM.

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Old 11/10/10, 8:11 AM   #42
amagee
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Demon Soul
Your reasoning is certainly sound but I would also point out that you probably will not be using your Divine Protection or AW on CD, unlike Judgement which I know I will be doing every 50-60 sec of an encounter.

I would rather have a guaranteed extended range and free heal for something I use at a specified interval in general. Mind you, the 5 yards and small heal isn't that much but it does provide a certain amount of utility. This is especially important when you note that judging will bring back a nice portion of your base mana so you may even be using it more often depending on the time and place.

I really do think that I will be switching my talents quite a bit to suit specific encounters. If I don't need AW every two minutes or DP every 40 sec, why use the points there?

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Old 11/10/10, 10:33 AM   #43
nikitabanana
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ysondre
Originally Posted by amagee View Post
Your reasoning is certainly sound but I would also point out that you probably will not be using your Divine Protection or AW on CD, unlike Judgement which I know I will be doing every 50-60 sec of an encounter.

I would rather have a guaranteed extended range and free heal for something I use at a specified interval in general. Mind you, the 5 yards and small heal isn't that much but it does provide a certain amount of utility. This is especially important when you note that judging will bring back a nice portion of your base mana so you may even be using it more often depending on the time and place.

I really do think that I will be switching my talents quite a bit to suit specific encounters. If I don't need AW every two minutes or DP every 40 sec, why use the points there?
Well, not even talking about the Hand of Sac reduction - just the DP alone is insanely useful in hard modes. Couple 40s DP to use during any mass aoe (which, until they retune heroic modes happens all the time!) with PoTI and it takes a huge amount of bad luck for us to die - something like Arcanotron barrage or something that's a dps mistake. A dead healer doesn't heal. Throw in the fact that you have on demand burst and that alone I think is worthwhile. Then they decided to lower our Sac CD to 1.5m. With the size of health pools, paladins can use sac more freely on the tank, low raid members - whatever is necessary.

Generally, I haven't found the extra 5 yards to matter in the slightest. I do have 1/2 Improved judgements because I wanted another 10 yards (it was 10 yards vs. blessed life vs. enlightened judgements). I decided that the extra heal is negligible since if I was extremely worried about my own death, I probably wouldn't be judging that moment.

I can't really see any good reason not to take PV. It's just too good and buffs some of our core abilities.

Edit: The reason to always spec it is that sac is useful in unpredictable situations.

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Old 11/10/10, 6:07 PM   #44
Zaroua
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Sen'jin
I've personally almost exclusively been using Avenging Wrath and Divine Favor when I use Holy Radiance. The reasoning is that if I actually need to spend mana on Holy Radiance, it's because there is a lot of healing to be done and if there is a lot of healing to be done I may as well just use one of my throughput cooldowns and get the most out of my one, huge AoE heal. So for me, PV means that my major AoE heal gets a whole lot stronger, makes it harder for me to die and lets me use my tank cooldown more frequently: in other words the talent kicks asses and saves lives.

I've also found the points in Eternal Glory to be almost useless now and ended up freeing the 2 points from that talent since I use almost all of my Holy Power on Light of Dawn now.

Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory

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Old 11/11/10, 6:40 AM   #45
Renew
Team Healbot
 
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Human Paladin
 
Tichondrius
WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie. as a starter for talents seems better.

Tower of Radiance feels less important than some of the other talents available.

Confidence is not Arrogance.

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