Paladin Simple Questions: Cataclysmic Mode - Page 3

Fancy_pants · 12/25/10, 6:35 PM

I'm having some trouble using Holy Radiance and Light of Dawn in 10 person raids. I've only ever done Halfus and Valiona/Theralion in BoT. On Halfus, I was rarely able to use either spell because we were spreading out 8 yards for the fireballs. I could use AoE heals when Theralion was active, but Valiona was more difficult due to ae damage from shadowbolts.

Any suggestions?

Sashstabbem · 12/26/10, 11:12 AM

Which mainhand enchant would provide the most selfhealing in a SoI / WoG tanking build?
(Assuming just speccing and glyphing for helping the healers out, no interest in threat or DPS)

Looking at logs from my threat build, Mending seems to provide a nice solid chunk of selfhealing - but would I be better off with a spellpower enchant to boost up my WoGs? Instinct says not but if anyone has any actual figures on that I'd be grateful. Using heroic [Blade of the Burning Sun]

Charybdis · 12/26/10, 3:42 PM

WoG scales off the higher of AP or SP, which means an SP enchant would be meaningless for a prot pally. Mending would indeed be the best option since even Landslide's unreliable 1000 AP wouldn't make up the difference for SoI/WoG. SoI is 15% of AP, so LS would only grant an extra 150 healing. WoG has about a 63% coefficient for Holy, less for us as Prot, so that's at best a 600ish increase if using 3 HP. With the numbers I've seen on Mending, just stick with it.

Sashstabbem · 12/27/10, 6:42 AM

Many thanks for the speedy reply.
By that same standard, I'm not benefiting any by using a spellpower weapon and would be better off with my regular tanking stick?
I'm currently only hoykeying the SP weap in when there's a crisis moment and I have to start aggressively selfhealing and blowing cooldowns (Healer dead in fire, etc) so my perception of how much it's been boosting the WoG's has been off anyway.

Nodrak · 12/28/10, 7:54 AM

Originally Posted by Charybdis

WoG scales off the higher of AP or SP, which means an SP enchant would be meaningless for a prot pally. Mending would indeed be the best option since even Landslide's unreliable 1000 AP wouldn't make up the difference for SoI/WoG. SoI is 15% of AP, so LS would only grant an extra 150 healing. WoG has about a 63% coefficient for Holy, less for us as Prot, so that's at best a 600ish increase if using 3 HP. With the numbers I've seen on Mending, just stick with it.

There is no evidence of WoG scaling with AP. Any observed scaling is from Stat -> Spell power specialization bonuses.

Edit: As per the Prot thread, it appears that it does indeed have non spell power based scaling, my initial testing methods only checked as a side after the fact. I will have to do some testing and update the Holy Thread.

Njus · 12/28/10, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Nodrak

There is no evidence of WoG scaling with AP. Any observed scaling is from Stat -> Spell power specialization bonuses.

Correct. If this weren't the case, we could expect simply massive WoG's once we get a large stack of vengance later into a fight. Alas, my WoG's 5 minutes in are the same size as when the fight starts.

Greatreaper · 12/29/10, 1:24 PM

holy paladin

Hello, does haste rating affect the hot of WoG (Long Word Glyph)? Do we get any additional ticks?

Stodragon · 12/29/10, 7:13 PM

I have a question regarding the Holy tier pieces versus the non tier pieces. As I understand it, haste is a better throughput stat than both crit and mastery. Comparing the non tier to tier gear however I have noticed that all but 1 piece(shoulders) have haste as a secondary stat while none of the tier pieces have it.

My question is: are the set bonuses worth losing all the haste we would have from the non tier pieces?

While I consider myself a good healer, I am by no means a person who can create spreadsheets and compare sets of data that take into account the many variables that affect our healing spells. Previously, set pieces have had secondary stats that were not the favored ones. However, this was offset by the powerful 2 or 4 piece bonuses. Maybe I am overlooking something but the bonuses we get from T1 Cata(T11) seem a bit weak to me.

Kiewii · 12/30/10, 8:45 AM

Does anyone know who manages the Rawr.Protpaladin module nowadays and if it will be updated for Rawr 4.0? (noone is responding to the old Rawr.Protpaladin threat over at maintankadin) Thanks.

danau · 12/30/10, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Stodragon

I have a question regarding the Holy tier pieces versus the non tier pieces. As I understand it, haste is a better throughput stat than both crit and mastery. Comparing the non tier to tier gear however I have noticed that all but 1 piece(shoulders) have haste as a secondary stat while none of the tier pieces have it.

My question is: are the set bonuses worth losing all the haste we would have from the non tier pieces?

While I consider myself a good healer, I am by no means a person who can create spreadsheets and compare sets of data that take into account the many variables that affect our healing spells. Previously, set pieces have had secondary stats that were not the favored ones. However, this was offset by the powerful 2 or 4 piece bonuses. Maybe I am overlooking something but the bonuses we get from T1 Cata(T11) seem a bit weak to me.

The 4-piece bonus is very nice and, to a lesser extent, so is the 2-piece, which is "good" but nowhere near as powerful as say, the tier 10 2-piece. I recall seeing some calculations (I believe in the compendium) which show that the 4-piece makes HR nearly mana-neutral, which would be extremely handy given its mana cost.

That being said, I personally don't think they justify the significant loss of haste for large chunks of crit/mastery, despite the ability to reforge.

Until someone is able to determine reasonably accurate stat weightings for Holy, it's hard to say just how much you're giving up, but eyeballing it I suspect it is quite a big margin between set and off-pieces. I certainly won't be going for any tier items any time soon.

Nycgangsta · 01/01/11, 2:17 PM

I know this is a simple question, but I am a bit confused. The Holy Pally Compendium made it seem like Holy Light should be our primary heal, however, while looking at logs from other guilds, including some from regular posters on here, it seems that Divine Light is our primary heal, and Holy Light barely ever comes above 5% of total healing. I realize it's not like WotLK anymore and we're not just funneled into 1 spell, but there must be some pattern based on the efficiency of the different spells. I never really asked a question, so to make it obvious, out of Holy Light, Flash of Light, and Divine Light, what should a holy pally's "primary" heal be in a raiding situation?

Noraj · 01/02/11, 3:09 AM

Originally Posted by Nycgangsta

I know this is a simple question, but I am a bit confused. The Holy Pally Compendium made it seem like Holy Light should be our primary heal, however, while looking at logs from other guilds, including some from regular posters on here, it seems that Divine Light is our primary heal, and Holy Light barely ever comes above 5% of total healing. I realize it's not like WotLK anymore and we're not just funneled into 1 spell, but there must be some pattern based on the efficiency of the different spells. I never really asked a question, so to make it obvious, out of Holy Light, Flash of Light, and Divine Light, what should a holy pally's "primary" heal be in a raiding situation?

Without bringing Holy's holy power mechanics into play, it's probably easiest to think of Holy Light as the autoattack of healing, as it is very efficient. Bascially, when you aren't casting anything else, you're casting Holy Light. Sometimes you need something fast and strong, so you use Flash of Light. Sometimes you don't need that heal quickly, but still need it to be very strong; This is where Divine Light comes into play. If you attempt to chain-cast either of these, you will run out of mana very quickly, which is why you fill the gaps in-between with Holy Light.

Some of what you're noticing might also just be due to encounter-specific mechanics such as the Power Generators during Omnitron Defense System...Certainly at times like these when mana is less of an issue, a healer would be foolish not to use their stronger spells. Generally speaking though, while Diving Light might be providing a higher percentage of the healing done, you'll likely notice at second glance that the same player cast anywhere from two to five times as many Holy Lights during the encounter.

Crovack · 01/02/11, 8:19 AM

Originally Posted by Noraj

Without bringing Holy's holy power mechanics into play, it's probably easiest to think of Holy Light as the autoattack of healing, as it is very efficient. Bascially, when you aren't casting anything else, you're casting Holy Light. Sometimes you need something fast and strong, so you use Flash of Light. Sometimes you don't need that heal quickly, but still need it to be very strong; This is where Divine Light comes into play. If you attempt to chain-cast either of these, you will run out of mana very quickly, which is why you fill the gaps in-between with Holy Light.

Some of what you're noticing might also just be due to encounter-specific mechanics such as the Power Generators during Omnitron Defense System...Certainly at times like these when mana is less of an issue, a healer would be foolish not to use their stronger spells. Generally speaking though, while Diving Light might be providing a higher percentage of the healing done, you'll likely notice at second glance that the same player cast anywhere from two to five times as many Holy Lights during the encounter.

I'd like to just expand on this by saying that currently (as per the last math I saw), assuming full healing from DL and WoG, using DL's on your Beacon Target (with ToR) is more efficient and more throughput (obviously) than using HLs. This leads to a basic healing strategy of:
Use Divine Lights (or FoL in a pinch) on your Beacon Target
Use Shock/WoG/HL on non-beacon targets unless you absolutely need DL/FoL. Shock/WoG/HL do not generate HP on the beacon target and if the beacon needs healing it will still get half of that heal through beacon. This seems to produce the highest efficiency.

Realistically speaking non-beacon targets will often take more damage than shock/wog/hl can handle alone in my experience, but the closer you can stick to the efficient model, the less problems you'll have in fights when you're forced to stray out of it in order to keep people alive.

You can shock/wog your beacon, but I only do so if no one else needs healing and/or the tank is very low on hp.

Last thing I'll add is this all assumes no overhealing. If the tank is near full health and there's little expected incoming damage, HL'ing the tank can be the right choice. Avoiding use of HL on the tank only makes sense if you're getting the full heal out of DL.

chX · 01/04/11, 3:00 AM

Hey guys. This is my first time posting, so I apologize if I have posted this in the wrong thread or if there's a better place I could have put it. Please let me know if that's the case.

I have a question regarding Paladin damage calculations. I've searched through this thread, the previous Simple Questions threads and a number of other resources, but have been unable to find an answer. I'm hoping someone could point me in the right direction. From what I understand, the standard damage calculation (the minimum and maximum damage shown in your character statistics) is said to be:

Damage = ((Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed) + (AP/14)) * Weapon Speed

This equation works correctly for a number of other classes, however I'm having issues applying it to my Retribution Paladin. I understand that Two-handed Weapon Specialization provided us with 20% more damage, however my calculations are still coming up short.

For example, my (unbuffed) melee stats are:
Damage: 3569 – 4360
Attack Power: 6893 (492.4 DPS)

My weapon stats are:
Weapon Damage: 1291 - 1937
Weapon Speed: 3.30

Using the above calculation gives me (for the minimum damage of the damage range):

Damage = ((Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed) + (AP/14)) * Weapon Speed
Damage = ((1291 / 3.30) + (492.4)) * 3.30
Damage = 2916

I have been attempting to add 20% to it like so:

2916 * 0.20 = 583.2.
583.2 + 2916 = 3499.2

Adding 20% to the initial weapon damage (1291) instead also comes up short. Is there anything that I'm missing here within my calculations?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Exemplar · 01/04/11, 8:33 AM

If you are referring to tooltip autoattack damage, you are neglecting the modifier from Communion. If you are referring to damage actually dealt, you also need to factor in damage reduction from armour as well as glancing blows.