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Old 02/08/11, 12:11 PM   #256
Feebs
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Rexxar
Confirmation: Dodges, parries, and misses on Crusader Strike and HotR do NOT generate holy power on live. Tested 12:10 EST. Fuck.

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Old 02/08/11, 12:53 PM   #257
Junlex
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Warrior
 
Anachronos (EU)
Originally Posted by Theck View Post
It's also possible that RD was never changed to automatically succeed, or that it generates a "miss" combat log entry when it should generate an "immune" (if this sounds unlikely, consider that HotR is not generating a combat log entry at all when it misses right now, nor is the associated Holy Power gain). In that post, I outlined a test we could perform to determine if either of these are the cases, but so far nobody's performed it.
The parrot trash in Deadmines heroic has the ability Eye Peck. I've never seen a hand of reckoning/taunt/growl miss on these mobs, but I've definitely seen righteous defense and challenging roar generate misses (don't recall for challenging shout), which led me to believe that rd/challenging shout/roar and possibly death grip do still get affected by hit while each class' standard taunt doesn't.

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Old 02/08/11, 1:12 PM   #258
Wrathblood
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
Just as a note, Censure is being applied by AS on live.

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Old 02/08/11, 1:35 PM   #259
Perimortem
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Gundrak
<deleted>

Last edited by Perimortem : 02/09/11 at 1:52 PM.

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Old 02/08/11, 3:16 PM   #260
Eelysa
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Mage
 
Stormreaver
Another confirmation on the stealth CS change. Dodge/Parry/Miss no longer generating HP. Dodge/parry miss SotR continuing to not spend HP. Looks like exp/hit are now a touch more important, though of note threat is still a non-issue on Argoloth with another prot paladin (haven't had a chance to test any other bosses).

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Old 02/08/11, 4:08 PM   #261
Talishar
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Bloodhoof
Deleted outdated info.

Last edited by Talishar : 02/10/11 at 11:53 AM.

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Old 02/08/11, 4:14 PM   #262
Petrus
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gorgonnash
Sacred Duty is also still falling off on a dodged/parried/missed SotR. Between that, the CS change, and addition of rebuke (the latter mostly dependent on your raid size/comp and availability of other interrupts), hit and expertise went up in value, though I'm really not sure that it's enough to make everyone want it on gear yet.

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Old 02/08/11, 5:31 PM   #263
Antiphonal
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Malygos
Originally Posted by Talishar View Post
It's probably a good idea to keep your current build until we get a blue post confirming or denying if the change was intentional. The lack of patch notes and the gravity of the change to our stat priority makes me believe it's a bug.
[BUG] Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous - Forums - World of Warcraft

There's the confirmation - in the bug report forum.

Also, there is a great deal of histrionics on the official forums, but very little math. Does this change put Paladin tanks at a significant disadvantage relative to the other tanking classes?

EDIT: Specifically taking into account the damage buffs of both CS and Censure. It seems like these would mitigate any loss of threat from a missed CS. The only danger then would be if you were extraordinary unlucky and had to hit SotR or WoG with only two holy power in order to keep Holy Shield up. It reduces the frequency one can WoG, but from my understanding, WoG was too strong, so this is not a terrible thing.

Of course, if the math shows that Paladin tanks are overall less effective than their competitors, then that's unfortunate.

Aside from the math, the greater reliance on the RNG is cumbersome. I think I would have rather had a straight percentage reduction (say, tweaking the coeffecients) than have initial threat generation be unreliable. It makes things like tank swaps unnecessarily stressful.

Last edited by Antiphonal : 02/08/11 at 6:56 PM.

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Old 02/08/11, 5:32 PM   #264
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Talishar View Post
It's probably a good idea to keep your current build until we get a blue post confirming or denying if the change was intentional.
It's been confirmed as intentional here. I have my own suspicions as to why they did this (nudging players to use Seal of Insight less and glyphed Seal of Truth more; reducing the amount of overall WoGs) but since I don't raid on my Paladin I'll leave it to you guys to discuss these things yourselves and try not to step on any toes. :P


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Old 02/08/11, 5:32 PM   #265
the KRIS
Bald Bull
 
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Retired
Gnome Paladin
 
No WoW Account
[Edit: Removed redundant sections of my post, as there were three nearly identical posts within one minute]

This is roughly a 25% Holy Power generation reduction for prot vs +3 mobs, assuming one achieves the current "0 hit/0 exp nirvana" zeitgeist but uses glyphed SoT.

Originally Posted by Liar View Post
I have my own suspicions as to why they did this (nudging players to use Seal of Insight less and glyphed Seal of Truth more; reducing the amount of overall WoGs)
As the self-healing of WoG is considerably more potent than the healing of SoI, I'd be more inclined to believe that hit and expertise will begin to matter, as they will actually become survivability stats as opposed to largely ignorable threat stats. Toward that end, the 10 expertise from SoT will become more important than ever, as the glyph adds a 5% chance for each CS/HotR to land and thus generate Holy Power.

Last edited by the KRIS : 02/08/11 at 5:59 PM.

Originally Posted by Theras View Post
I hope if my raid group fails to kill a world boss, I get a popup that says, "Good effort, Aurrius! You're still a winner in our eyes!" Then they can spawn some Tigule and Foror's Strawberry Ice Cream in my inventory, and a pint-sized Participation Trophy I can trade in for Valor Points.

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Old 02/08/11, 6:04 PM   #266
Eelysa
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Mage
 
Stormreaver
So with this now blue-confirmed, how do hit and expertise stack up to mastery point-for-point in terms of survivability increase with high WoG use? Expertise to 26 should continue to be the first place we go for increased crusader strike hits (and thus increased HP generation), but is it worth reforging/gemming/enchanting away from mastery to get it? Obviously AP scaling of WoG and incoming blockable damage levels will play a role, but there should be some equivalence points for given encounter/AP pairs

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Old 02/09/11, 8:26 AM   #267
PsiVen
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Kilrogg
That's not going to be a simple answer. How do you intend to quantify the chance for a missed HoPo to affect survivability? Getting the numbers out would be a difficult, highly situational simulation. I would parametrize directly-lifesaving WoG healing opportunities lost, directly-lifesaving blocked/avoided hits lost, healer mana saved by non-lifesaving WoG healing, and healer mana saved by non-lifesaving blocked/avoided hits. I am quite certain that mastery would come out far ahead on both counts.

For a quick sanity check: The amount of mastery->hit/expertise rating required to hit/dodge cap with the SoT glyph is 1442. If you were to take that all from mastery rating, your block would drop by 13.79%. Do you feel that 4.0.6 has affected your survivability anywhere near that much?

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Old 02/09/11, 10:43 AM   #268
Wrathblood
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Drenden
Psiven, I was going to say that this is almost incalcuble without, say, Theck's sim, but thinking about it, its actually simpler than I'd thought and might be chartable by hand.

Our rotation actually doesn't change very much. We still hit CS every other GCD, its just that it won't always generate HoPo. When you've got 3 HoPo, the next GCD is ShoR. After that, its the exact same priority system we had before. GC procs will probably be slightly more valuable because you'll have a few more open GCDs.

Last edited by Wizeowel : 02/09/11 at 11:27 AM.

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Old 02/09/11, 10:54 AM   #269
Theck
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by PsiVen View Post
That's not going to be a simple answer. How do you intend to quantify the chance for a missed HoPo to affect survivability? Getting the numbers out would be a difficult, highly situational simulation.
It might be if we wanted to micromanage to that degree. But an average estimate of the self-healing-per-second (SHPS) gained through hit could be compared to the survivability cost in average damage-taken-per-second (DTPS).

I have udpated the priority queue simulation to match current conditions (CS buff, new seal proc mechanics, CS/HotR "broken" holy power implementation, 0 threat on WoG healing). They now report DPS, TPS, and SHPS. You can see that on average, at 2% hit and 10 expertise with 100% vengeance and a "SotR" talent/glyph build, WoG generates around 2.6k HPS at a cost of around 2k DPS (6k TPS). Increasing hit/exp to 8%/26 increases the self-healing to a little over 3k HPS, but increases the DPS/TPS cost to ~3.3k/10k respectively.

That means that 4% hit and 16 expertise (4% dodge redux, 4% parry redux) gives you about 600 HPS of healing. That means that each 1% hit is responsible for 600/12=50 HPS, and each 2 expertise (1% total dodge/parry redux) is worth the same. At ~120 hit rating per %, that makes each point of hit worth 50/120=0.42 HPS and each point of expertise worth 50/(2*30)=0.83 HPS.

By comparison, we can calculate the DTPS reduction of dodge/parry/mastery against a boss putting out 15k DPS (after mitigation and avoidance) on a tank with 30% total avoidance, 50% block. From the Derivations thread, the formula for avoidance and mastery should be:
dD = D[-dAv-0.4*dB]/[1-Av-0.4*B]
where D is the incoming post-mitigation/avoidance DTPS, dD is the change in D due to the addition of dAv post-DR avoidance or dB block, and Av and B are your character sheet (post-DR) avoidance and block.

Assuming 12.5% post-DR dodge (or parry), one additional point of rating adds 0.0039% avoidance, or dAv=3.8792e-5 in our notation (Av=0.3, B=0.5). At D=15000 dps, this gives a dD=-1.16 DPS, a larger decrease in intake than the increase in self-healing from expertise or hit.

Under those same conditions, 1 point of mastery gives dD=-1.5 DPS, even larger (as expected).

Note that these scale linearly with D, so for avoidance to drop enough to match mastery it would take a D of 15k*0.83/1.16=10.7k DPS. So on some of the more weakly-hitting bosses, the argument could be made that expertise is a viable survivability stat. The boss would have to be hitting for under 5.4k DPS to make that same argument for hit, however, and both values get worse if you want to compare against mastery.

As far as threat, the results of the sim are fairly unsurprising. Our damage buffs mostly offset the DPS loss of lost holy power generation. All this change has accomplished is to make the rotation less stable, with more empty GCDs. That's arguably more annoying, but it's not the devastating hit to our threat or survivability that many want to make it out to be.

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Old 02/09/11, 2:34 PM   #270
Petrus
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gorgonnash
Word of Glory also now causes zero threat. Tested on some random mobs in twilight highlands - my mage friend hit them, I taunted them, he hit them again - I divine plea'd, then cast Word of Glory, and saw no change in threat.

Edit: apparently it's been this way since January, and I'm a bit hasty about the sky-is-falling mode, but it's been bugged/changed since mid-January (pre-4.0.3a, according to Theck).

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