Actually i decided to take an extra look at this: What would be the gains and losses of swapping 2 prot tier 11 pieces for 2 ret pieces, namely chest and legs (They are the ones with additional strenght)

Stat loss: 20 mastery, 188 hit, 188 haste, and 228 crit. Giving a total loss of secondary stats (ignoring reforge of) of 624.
This is given as useless avoidance stats, that can however be reforged. 40 % of 624 = 250 is regained through reforging.
Additionally 20 secondary stats are lost due to a good dps socket bonus, and the 4 piece tier 11 bonus is lost.

Total loss: 394 secondary stats and T11 - 4P

Total gain 80 strenght and 10 % damage on CS.
80 Strenght is worth between 400 and 800 of the secondary stats crit and haste, which is what it all comes down to due to reforging. So the stats are actually better on the tanking piece, though the set bonus might be inferior.

Unfortunately i cannot use the spreadsheet on this pc, but i might get around to it and edit it in.

Edit: clarification

4pT11 makes Inquisition go to 20/30/40 seconds for 1/2/3 HP and HoL creates a 40 second Inquisition.

4pT11, in my opinion, is definitely worthwhile to alternative offset items. I picked up four piece tonight and I was able to be so much more aggressive with my Holy Power rather than careful with it. I cut my refresh point down from 6-8 seconds left on Inquisition to 1-3 (depending on if CS is off CD). Furthermore, the set bonus leads to more Divine Purpose procs as a byproduct because you're using Inquisition at a lower HP value and, because of that, using TV more often.

Edit - I should clarify, I was aiming to use Inquisition at 2 HP normally and periodically throwing in 1 HP ones when the situation dictated it. I was avoiding using it at 3 HP or during a HoL proc. The benefit, per HP, of the bonus diminishes the more HP spent on Inquisition.

For a bit of anecdotal evidence, on Valiona & Theralion tonight, I ended up using TV more often than our Ret Paladin while still generating less total Holy Power and gaining less Hand of Light procs. Same thing on Cho'gall, he generated 15~ more total HP than me but I still used TV 5 more times.

On another note, I sat between 45-55% Landslide uptime while actively fighting something (it was lower on Twilight Ascendant Council due to the fight nature). I'm going to test what it all procs off of over the next hour or so, so I'll update when I'm done.

The log from tonight - World of Logs (I had 4p after Halfus)

Whilst the testing I done on the tier bonus' was rather simple I belive the results are accurate. When I get some time later I'll try a more in depth testing, again using Redcape's spreadsheet, to try and value the stats and reforging regarding taking two prot tier pieces - assuming no does it before hand.

Edit:

I've just done a small test using Redcape's spreadsheet.

Test setting - Level 85 Blood Elf Retribution Paladin. No buffs. No professions. Using defualt spec, enchants and glyphs. Allowing no use of AW, Zealotry or Bloodlust/Heroism and all gear ungemmed. The test dummy was wearing only tier gear and no other armor, clothing or weapon.

The pieces changed were the Retribution tier11 chest and legs changes to the Protection tier11 chest and legs.

Retribution test;

The gloves were reforged to change Mastery to Crit making the 149 mastery 90 mastery and 59 crit.
The legs were reforged to change Mastery to Crit making the 228 mastery 137 mastery and 91 crit.

Using 5/5 Retribution tier11 gear gave a DPS of 6014.

Protection test;

The gloves were reforged to change Mastery to Crit making the 149 mastery 90 mastery and 59 crit.
The chest was reforged to change Parry making the 168 parry 101 parry and 67 crit.
The legs were reforged to change Parry making the 188 parry 113parry and 75 crit.

Using 3/5 Retribution tier11 gear and 2/5 Protection tier11 gear gave a DPS of 5861.

This leaves us with a DPS loss of 153 DPS.

After adding in fake stats to make the hit and expertise caps the retribution test gave me 6465 DPS whilst the prot test gave me 6413 DPS leaving a DPS loss of 52.


If I can get some time later I'll try a more indepth test using a full gear set with buffs, gems and ability use. However I still think that any set up is going to leave the 2 piece of prot gear at an overall DPS loss.

On Landslide

I feel I've spent sufficient time testing Landslide's proc mechanics in relation to our spells. CS, DS, TV, and Judgement all proc it. Divine Storm appears to be on a per cast basis, not a per target. Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Hammer of Wrath, Censure, and Consecration don't appear to proc it. I can't be for certain whether or not SoT or SoC can proc it.

Misc

Other miscellaneous/very interesting things I've discovered in my boredom.

TV is omnidirectional, you can hit mobs behind you w/ it.

The "4th Holy Power" doesn't display correctly sometimes. The easiest way to check this is to do 1HP TVs, at some point, TV will be available but you'll have no HP on your bar. However, if you gain another Holy Power, it'll correctly display.

The strangest bug I've found is that it appears there's a rare instance where Divine Purpose will award two Holy Power for a single ability. The only way I've been able to duplicate this is as follows:

1. Build 3 HP, but make sure you can't possibly have a hidden 4th (IE CS to gain your 3rd)
2. Cast Exorcism (as in cast bar cast)
3. Immediately use your 3 HP TV when Exorcism finishes
4. Make sure TV isn't blocked/parried/dodged/missed

Note - If AoW or HoL procs at all, use all current HP and start back at 1.

Obviously, this has the potential to proc 2 HP through DP, but sometimes you'll have 3 HP. It takes me 10-15 3HP TVs to duplicate this effect. And no, it's not a split second proc of HoL. I won't eliminate the possibility it's some odd function from a gear proc I have.

I don't know if this'll yield anything practical or if it has any implications but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Hearing reports that the PTR is being patched to 4.0.6. The changes to Mastery and Divine Purpose may be in this build, so could be an interesting weekend

Yes it's currently available. After first quick look :

- our "new" mastery still called Hand of Light - TV,CS,DS deal 20% additional damage as Holy damage. Each point of Mastery increase the damage by an additional 2.5%

- Divine Purpose talent was changed - it's 15% chance to cause your next Holy Power ability to consume no Holy Power and to cast as if 3 Holy Power were consumed (esentially our current mastery) - can proc from : judgement, exorcism, TV, DS, Inq, Hw and HoW.

- also TV tooltip got higher weapon dmg % value - 35%/104%/270% for 1/2/3 HP.

I did a little bit of napkin math on the new values for mastery. According to my calculations mastery will sit somewhere around 100 value on my sheet, roughly equating to 1 dps to 1 mastery point. This will put mastery solidly ahead of crit or haste and make it our best secondary stat by a noticeable margin. Of course mastery will still be worth ~50% of Strength so we won't be gemming 40 mastery gems or any such thing but it will make hitting yellow socket bonuses significantly more worthwhile and will clearly reverse our current reforging priorities. Our dps will also rise very significantly with these changes, and of course our priorities for attacks will have to change with CS and TV becoming drastically more powerful.

I will rewrite the relevant portions of my spreadsheet asap and have more concrete numbers for you all today or tomorrow I hope.

Need to factor in the lost dps from not getting random 40% Holy Power procs from TV/INQ/J/HW/HoW/Exo.

I hope they do something with Judgement, it's even less interesting of a button to press now. Also, Divine Storm really needs to give HP 100% of the time as well, and I think it would be nice if we still got an RNG chance to get holy power from using a finisher, similar to Ruthlessness for rogues.

Old and new Divine Purpose are probably roughly equal (1 HP at 40% vs 3 at 15%, though lose a bit from the proccing nature), with the side-effect of interacting more smoothly with Zealotry. Still need to make sure the model is updated to reflect the change though of course .

It probably will have a big impact on the value of 4 Piece Tier 11 too. 1HP for 20s duration Inquisition followed by a 3HP TV for most efficient use of Holy Power perhaps?

Still, the changes get a cautious thumbs up.

I agree with your point about DS, given that it's meant to be interchanged with CS. Also, we do still maintain the Holy Power chance from a finisher.

Instead of just giving one, you're essentially getting three.

I like that we're now not at the whim of proc-luck, aside from AoW usage. Having some RNG keeps players on their toes, but I think what we have on Live is just a tad excessive. This should still keep players on their toes, without overwhelming them with "quick-hit-this-right-now" moments.

Hopefully we will see something addressed for SoT and target-swaps. (i.e. letting our strikes apply Censure.)

The wording is a little ambiguous, so I wanted to know if anyone knew the details of the nature of this. Is the holy damage multiplier applied prior to armor calculation of the mob or after? Here's an example of the situation outlining the two scenarios:

For simplicity's sake we assume armor reduces damage by 25%, resulting in 75% original damage.

Scenario 1

Total damage = TV Damage * .75 * 1.2 = .9 * TV Dmg

Scenario 2

Total damage = TV Dmg * .75 + TV Dmg * .2 = .95 * TV Dmg


As you can see, there is a difference in total damage output of these two scenarios, as scenario two results in 5.6% more damage. Additionally, as armor values go up and our TV hits for less, the difference between the two will be greater (at 50% armor reduction, scenario 2 is a 16.7% increase in damage over scenario 1).

The difference here is important because it affects our valuation of the mastery stat. As it stands now, CS + TV is doing roughly 30-35% of our overall damage on boss fights, so at base our mastery will increase our DPS by .2 * .35 = 7%, with each additional point in mastery increasing our dps by .025 * .35 = .875% (in the case of scenario 1). However, if scenario 2 were to hold true, we would see larger increases in DPS based on boss armor (unless the boss had 0 armor).

What a relief. I have been pulling through this hard moment (although there have been more harsh ones for sure) at a nice pace, rarely being outdps'd significantly in normal and heroics 5-man.

However, these new changes are very promising. A mastery adding holy damage was clearly needed and not only this will help us with DPS, but also with more burst damage (mainly for PvP, indeed) which was lacking when compared to old-school Retri. TV (with 270% base damage now) + mastery and the 15% chance of another TV + mastery ready, right after the first one...Nice stuff.

How about Divine Storm, anyway? If I understood right it will deal 20% of its damage as Holy damage on all targets, do you think this is going to make it any better than previously?

Judgement just needs to be closely tied with its Seal. It is so currently for Truth (just need to fix the single-target attack thing), it is so for Insight (it gives 15% base mana back after judging), it should really be so for Righteousness and Justice, too; it would make sense for Judgement of Righteousness to hit multiple targets (with SoC talent) and for Justice to add a small root (like 3 sec,) with diminishing returns.

I could be totally off, but it seems as though we're going to be a bit starved for Holy Power with the recent change to Divine Purpose. I realize we will have a 15% chance to proc "Hand of Light", but it seems as though hitting 3sec CS's is almost necessary now, moving haste up substantially in gearing/reforging. In the current state with all the RNG we roll with, there's several occasions during a fight where we sit on our thumbs for the next CS with HW, J, and Conc on CD. Having less free holy power from the old Divine Purpose, it seems like this will happen a bit more often. Or I'm completely confused with the new changes and not aware of how often a 15% proc will happen.

Well, keep in mind that the current Mastery is a base 8% chance to proc from autoattacks only, while the new Divine Purpose appears that it will proc from all of the current abilities listed in the talent. If that's the case, it seems we would lose less wasted procs since you'd need an ability to proc the next one. I know the number of wasted procs would be very low due to the avoidance of mastery, but it at least makes it look more controllable.

Additionally, does this mean that Divine Purpose can proc off of itself, since Templar's Verdict and Inquisition are eligible abilities?

I like these changes if only for the fact that we won't get Hand of Light and Art of War procs off the same melee attack anymore - I found this pretty annoying because although Exo > TV sometimes it resulted in a wasted HoL proc. It will be nice to see if TV can proc more free TV's.

Someone just brought up the Chaotic Meta requirements in my Twitter feed. I know it's not in the Patch Notes, I wonder if they've decided to just not go through with the reversion.

It has been posted also on the official patch notes on MMO-Champion so it is true

Below are my findings based on PTR data with a pre-made L80 character against the Target Dummy (Level ???) in Silvermoon City.

Hand of Light is classified as an additional damage source. It cannot be dodged, parried, or miss as long as the initial attack lands. Hand of Light damage is calculated after the initial attack swing, and thus will deal no damage and will not be reflected in the Combat Log against targets that were killed by the initial attack (Example- Killing a Critter will only yield in Crusader Strike damage, and no Hand of Light damage).

The damage done is based off the damage of the initial attack, and remains constant, meaning that damage boosting effects such as Avenging Wrath does not cause Hand of Light to "double dip" and deal 44% extra damage.

Finally, because it is a technically a separate attack, the damage dealt by Hand of Light from using Divine Storm does not contribute to the healing component- The heal is still based on solely the physical damage of Divine Storm.

Fascinating. Hopefully character transfers will be up soon so Hand of Lights' interactions with Inquisition can be tested.

I presume that Hand of Light cannot proc a Seal?

Does this cause Glyph of Crusader Strike to beat out Glyph of Exorcism again then?

If I'm not mistaken, Glyph of CS already beats Glyph of Exorcism because of dot clipping. I could be wrong though.

Currently, the PTR is not flagged for Cataclysm, thus preventing any Worgen and Goblin players from copying over. The other races can copy over (and are displayed in the Character Selection screen), but cannot log in if they are above level 80.

As for your question no, Hand of Light does not proc a seal- Treat it as you would Seals of Command, except it cannot be dodged, parried, or miss.