The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 10

Rammurg · 12/24/10, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by xenikos

I was wondering if anyone has done any work (or even thoughts) on trinket priorities? It is the only gearing question that doesn't seem easy to figure out on my own, since I'm not sure how to balance the static Strength trinkets (Crushing Weight/License to Slay) vs. the Str. proc ones (Heart of Rage), vs. Str on use (the Tol Barad rep trinket). I like my TB trinket given how the on use ability always gets magnified by AW, but does that reliability outweigh the greater strength from the Heart of Rage proc? And where does DMC: Hurricane fit in?

According to a comment on Heart of Solace's wowhead page, Cataclysm proc trinkets have a ~1/6th uptime, making their average bonus equal to on-use trinkets of the same iLvl, and equal to the passive stat on the item.

Heart of Solace - Item - World of Warcraft

However, testing Crushing Weight a bit, it seems to have either a 1min or a 1min 15sec ICD (and a low proc chance, sometimes it took more than 1min 30sec to proc again), giving it a 25% or 20% uptime. In any case, they don't seem to have the 33% uptime of WotLK trinkets anymore. Still, with a 20-25% uptime they have a slight edge to on-use trinkets budget-wise, but on-use has the advantage of being more easily stackable with your cooldowns.

I did my testing with some crude stopwatching so don't take it as guaranteed fact.

chippydip · 12/24/10, 5:24 PM

It looks like we have 6 trinkets to consider at ilvl 359:

[Crushing Weight] (321 Strength, 1926 haste proc for 15s)
[Darkmoon Card: Hurricane] (321 Strength, 5500 nature damage proc)
[Fury of Angerforge] (321 crit, 1926 Strength for 20s every 2min--requires stacks)
[Heart of Rage] (321 expertise, 1926 Strength proc for 20s)
[Impatience of Youth] (321 mastery, 1605 Strength for 20s every 2min)
[License to Slay] (321 hit, 380 Strength when stacked)

Of those, 3 have heroic counterparts:

[Crushing Weight] (363 Strength, 2178 hste proc for 15s)
[DONTUSEFury of Angerforge] (363 crit, 1926 Strength for 20s every 2min--requires stacks)
[Heart of Rage] (363 expertise, 2178 Strength proc for 20s)

All of the ilvl 359 trinkets seems relatively similar, so I assume a true BiS list will use two of the heroic trinkets. The stacking buff mechanic of Fury of Angerforge sounds like it makes the trinket significantly less valuable currently (plus the heroic version seems unimplemented currently) so H Crushing Weight and H Heart of Rage are likely the best 2 right now.

Pre-heroic, it probably doesn't matter too much. DMC: Hurricane could be good or bad depending on proc rate. Fury of Angerforge is likely worse than the others, and Impatience of Youth is likely low on the list due to mastery (though very easy to get).

Crushing Weight and Heart of Rage seem worth spending DKP/EPGP on at this point. License to Slay also seems very good if you can spare the valor points. DMC: Hurricane and Impatience of Youth aren't terrible and are easy to get outside of raids. Fury of Angerforge is the only one I'd stay away from at this point unless/until they change how the proc mechanic works.

HamSlammer · 12/24/10, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mewee

Looked through some logs to find out the real value of E4E in current raids. It seems like there's quite a bit of variation between the different parses, but none the less it seems to be pretty clear that it's almost a must have talent for maximizing damage output - more than I thought after running with it for a month in ICC.

While I agree this is our best usage of our floater point plus the point required to get to Zealotry (and thereby rescind my previous allegiance to AoS until further notice), the damage is does only adds to our, sometimes infuriating, RNG inspired DPS. Some anecdotal evidence (our logs are private for the time being), on Twin Dragons this week in 25man, I took 716k damage and did 76k E4E damage (1.3% of total) whereas the other Ret Paladin took 803k damage but dealt 186k damage (3.1% of total) through E4E.

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Ham and Noraj - could you check your AoW data compared to your haste? It's possible the 20% is being transformed from a percent into a PPM mechanic, which is then effected by haste. I.e. it sets your PPM off base weaponspeed, then when your weapospeed is reduced by haste your true PPM rise and you receive more than 20% AoW procs. If we can nail down this mechanic (or know Onyxia is simply doing more Deep Breaths) we can improve our models.

Arrenamoo over two raid nights
Haste - 9.58%, 1227 Rating
492 AoW procs
1931 White Swings
25.4%

All three of the Rets (Me, Khaos, and Ithanii) in my guild experienced a higher proc percentage in boss encounters when compared to their nightly average. I'm not sure if this means anything or if, again, Onyxia is just Deep Breathing more.

Edit1 - Logs I've been using - WoL1,WoL2. Note that Ithanii was tanking for some of Bastion of Twilight.

Pdawg · 12/24/10, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by Noraj

The highs and lows I observed were 24% and 29% respectively, though I didn't have anywhere near enough data to figure out the range with any real accuracy.

Can you provide a log? I checked the only Ret in your guild's most recent log and observed a proc rate of 18%. I randomly picked 5 more logs with > 1000 white swings, and not a single one with a proc rate of 20% or higher. If what you're seeing is more than just randomness, it would be useful if we could examine the logs, talents, and glyphs of the players that are exceeding 20%. I have not tested whether or not AoW is capable of proc'ing off of dodges, misses, and parries.

kári · 12/24/10, 8:00 PM

Considering uptime of "Chance on X to boost stat by Y" trinkets is (1/5) I have done some simple math about trinkets.

Based on Redcape's "Naked" Stat weightings:

[Crushing Weight] (321 Strength, 1926 haste for 15sec)

321x1 + 1/5x1926x0.16 = 321 + 61,632 = 382,632

[Heart of Rage] (321 expertise, 1926 Strength for 20sec)

Okay, Heres one very important thing to remember. You cant caunt pure expertise or pure hit ratings completely becouse they both are worthless stat when capped, So im replacing 40% of that expertise to stat wich actually increases our dps when expertise & hit are capped. In this case it will be offcourse crit becouse it is our best secondary stat. (According stat weightings).

193x0.27 + 128x0.20 + 1/5x1926x1 = 52,11 + 25,6 + 385,2 = 462,91

[License to Slay] (321 hit, 380 Strength when stacked)

Reforged 40% hit to crit

193x0.42 + 128x0.20 + 380x1 = 81,06 + 25,6 + 380 = 486,66

[Crushing Weight] (363 Strength, 2178 haste for 15sec)

363x1 + 1/5x2178x0.16 = 363 + 69,696 = 432,969

[Heart of Rage] (363 expertise, 2178 Strength for 20sec)

Reforged 40% expertise to crit

218x0.27 + 145x0.20 + 1/5x2178x1 = 58,86 + 29 + 435,6 = 523,46

[Heart of Solace] (285 Haste, 1710 strength for 20sec)

Reforged 40% Haste to crit, You should have enough haste/mastery pieces to reforge necessary hit/expertise from them.

171x0.16 + 114x0.20 + 1/5x1710x1 = 27,36 + 22,8 + 342 = 392,4

1. [Heart of Rage] 523,46 "DPS"
2. [License to Slay] 486,66 "DPS"
3. [Heart of Rage] 462,91 "DPS"
4. [Crushing Weight] 432,969 "DPS"
5. [Heart of Solace] 392,4 "DPS"
6. [Crushing Weight] 382,632 "DPS"

Based on Exemplar's "Naked" Stat wightings:

[Crushing Weight] (321 Strength, 1926 haste for 15sec)

321x1 + 1/5x1926x0.11 = 321 + 42,372 = 363,372

[Heart of Rage] (321 expertise, 1926 Strength for 20sec)

Reforged 40% expertise to crit

193x0.18 + 128x0.12 + 1/5x1926x1 = 35,64 + 15,36 + 385,2 = 436,2

[License to Slay] (321 hit, 380 Strength when stacked)

Reforged 40% hit to crit

193x0.27 + 128x0.12 + 380x1 = 52,11 + 15,36 + 380 = 447,47

[Crushing Weight] (363 Strength, 2178 haste for 15sec)

363x1 + 1/5x2178x0.11 = 363 + 47,916 = 410,916

[Heart of Rage] (363 expertise, 2178 Strength for 20sec)

Reforged 40% expertise to crit

218x0.18 + 145x0.12 + 1/5x2178x1 = 39,24 + 17,4 + 435,6 = 492,24

[Heart of Solace] (285 Haste, 1710 strength for 20sec)

Reforged 40% Haste to crit, You should have enough haste/mastery pieces to reforge necessary hit/expertise from them.

171x0.11 + 114x0.12 + 1/5x1710x1 = 18,81 + 13,68 + 342 = 374,49

1.[Heart of Rage] 492,24 "DPS"
2.[License to Slay] 447,47 "DPS"
3.[Heart of Rage] 436,2 "DPS"
4.[Crushing Weight] 410,916 "DPS"
5.[Heart of Solace] 374,49 "DPS"
6.[Crushing Weight] 363,372 "DPS"

Edit: Added Item [Heart of Solace]

Charybdis · 12/24/10, 8:42 PM

[Impatience of Youth] is underbudget with its 1605 strength on-use, putting it at 267.5 average. Assuming we reforge the Mastery to crit it comes out to 310.47 EP under Redcape's numbers, or 294.44 with Exemplar's. This is lower than [Heart of Solace] at 285 average strength and 285 haste, resulting in 330.6 EP with Redcape's, or 316.35 EP with Exemplar's.

Something to note is if we do a 1/6th uptime on trinket procs, they equal 321 for normals and 363 for heroics, the same as the static stats on the trinket. It might be coincidence, but the chance it's by design means we should test to verify the true ICD's of each trinket.

Noraj · 12/24/10, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Pdawg

Can you provide a log? I checked the only Ret in your guild's most recent log and observed a proc rate of 18%. I randomly picked 5 more logs with > 1000 white swings, and not a single one with a proc rate of 20% or higher. If what you're seeing is more than just randomness, it would be useful if we could examine the logs, talents, and glyphs of the players that are exceeding 20%. I have not tested whether or not AoW is capable of proc'ing off of dodges, misses, and parries.

There are two of us, myself, and Mamicorona. I'm assuming if you looked at the most recent log that you were looking at the one from Throne of Four Winds, and I wasn't present, so here's his breakdown for that night. How did you calculate the percentage? Out of his 546 autoattack (melee) hits, 86 autoattack crits, and 8 blocked autoattacks (640 total attacks) he had 172 Art of War buff gains, meaning 26% of his autoattacks procced the buff rather than the expected 128 over the course of the night. Am I calculating this incorrectly?

Also, Exemplar, are you looking for the amount of haste from gear and Judgements of the Pure alone, or are you looking for weapon speeds, Windfury category buffs, any haste trinket procs, and heroism/bloodlust uptime as well?

n.b., the 24% and 29% I observed were from logs I picked at random from World of Logs, and I didn't keep track of the guilds, dates, or URLs unfortunately.

Kawke · 12/25/10, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by kári

In this case it will be offcourse crit becouse it is our best secondary stat. (According stat weightings).[/b]

From my understanding the best secondary stat for us is haste since haste effects the cool down of crusader strike. Once we lower our crusader strike cool down to about 3 seconds or so (possibly 1500 haste) then we can focus on crit. I'm not sure if we should reforge for crit until we can get enough haste to achieve that goal.

burghy · 12/25/10, 4:17 AM

Out of his 546 autoattack (melee) hits, 86 autoattack crits, and 8 blocked autoattacks (640 total attacks) he had 172 Art of War buff gains, meaning 26% of his autoattacks procced the buff rather than the expected 128 over the course of the night. Am I calculating this incorrectly?

Drag the scroll to the right, there's also 268 glances.

Llewllyn · 12/25/10, 4:27 AM

One quick question about kari's evaluation of our possible trinkets. Since we should already be at hit and expertise cap before obtaining any of the trinkets with hit or expertise on them. Isn't it better to evaluate them in terms of the stats we would gain and not stats we already have?

Say for instance that I'm exactly at expertise cap and I get a trinket with 200 expertise on it. I will reforge some of the expertise of the trinket naturally but then I will also reforge/unforge expertise off of other pieces of gear until I'm exactly at the expertise cap.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you evaluate hit/expertise trinkets using the weights or those stats they will always be better. However, in reality we should evaluate them using the weight for crit/haste (which ever is better for your current gear setup) since we aren't actually gaining any hit/expertise it is just allowing us to reforge to crit/haste on other pieces of gear.

I propose that in the future when evaluating pieces of gear we no longer view expertise and hit rating as themselves but as crit rating since ideally that is what they will become.

In terms of general gearing strategies the only time you should worry about hit and expertise caps is if you are so far above hem that you can't reforge back down to the cap or you are so far below that you can't reforge up to the cap. The upper limit is 1601.67 for hit rating( 60% of 1601 is 961). Expertise is trickier just b/c there are so many acceptable values but as long as the amount of expertise you have is 5/3 greater than the amount you need to cap you should be fine. The minimum hit/expertise you need from gear depends on the ilvl of your gear. As we get better gear we will be able to reforge larger amounts of ratings and therefore need less hit/expertise on our gear.

In practice since we are balancing a 2 variable system these windows aren't exactly as I outlined them above since you can't always reforge all your gear for hit rating, you may need to reforge a few pieces or expertise.

If you see any errors in my line of thinking please feel free to correct me.

kári · 12/25/10, 4:37 AM

Originally Posted by Llewllyn

One quick question about kari's evaluation of our possible trinkets. Since we should already be at hit and expertise cap before obtaining any of the trinkets with hit or expertise on them. Isn't it better to evaluate them in terms of the stats we would gain and not stats we already have?

Say for instance that I'm exactly at expertise cap and I get a trinket with 200 expertise on it. I will reforge some of the expertise of the trinket naturally but then I will also reforge/unforge expertise off of other pieces of gear until I'm exactly at the expertise cap.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you evaluate hit/expertise trinkets using the weights or those stats they will always be better. However, in reality we should evaluate them using the weight for crit/haste (which ever is better for your current gear setup) since we aren't actually gaining any hit/expertise it is just allowing us to reforge to crit/haste on other pieces of gear.

I propose that in the future when evaluating pieces of gear we no longer view expertise and hit rating as themselves but as crit rating since ideally that is what they will become.

In terms of general gearing strategies the only time you should worry about hit and expertise caps is if you are so far above hem that you can't reforge back down to the cap or you are so far below that you can't reforge up to the cap. The upper limit is 1601.67 for hit rating( 60% of 1601 is 961). Expertise is trickier just b/c there are so many acceptable values but as long as the amount of expertise you have is 5/3 greater than the amount you need to cap you should be fine. The minimum hit/expertise you need from gear depends on the ilvl of your gear. As we get better gear we will be able to reforge larger amounts of ratings and therefore need less hit/expertise on our gear.

In practice since we are balancing a 2 variable system these windows aren't exactly as I outlined them above since you can't always reforge all your gear for hit rating, you may need to reforge a few pieces or expertise.

If you see any errors in my line of thinking please feel free to correct me.

I understand youre point but since crit is best secondary stat to us you want to maximize it. If you need hit or expertise never reforge it from crit, You reforge it from lets say priority: Expertise (If you have too much expertise) / Hit (If you have too much hit) --> Mastery --> Haste.

Thats the reason why I reforged few trinkets to crit in my calculations.

Okay, Ill give u example.

Lets say you got both hit & expertise capped and you got [Heart of Solace] & [Crushing Weight] trinkets.

"[Heart of Rage] drops, You get it. You equip it and notice that you are aloth over expertise cap, Ok crit is best secondary stat to me so lets reforge this trinket to crit. Ok im still way over on my expertise" well now just reforge expertise to best stat you can.

So dont worry about that, you will always gain either crit or haste for unforging that expertise.

Actually that just makes [Heart of Rage] & [License to Slay] even more stronger than my calculations.

Adaptation · 12/25/10, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by Kawke

From my understanding the best secondary stat for us is haste since haste effects the cool down of crusader strike. Once we lower our crusader strike cool down to about 3 seconds or so (possibly 1500 haste) then we can focus on crit. I'm not sure if we should reforge for crit until we can get enough haste to achieve that goal.

getting CS to 3 seconds is not possible in tier 11, I have 1316 Haste and I'm not anywhere close to 3 seconds CS (so 1500 haste is nowhere near enough), with 3 second CS unobtainable its better to keep Crit and Haste relatively balanced (with crit having a slight advantage) according to Redcape's and Exemplar's spreadsheets.

RebornTN · 12/25/10, 10:05 AM

With out being able to reach a 3s CS is it better to go with something else over Hurricane (not counting landslide atm)?

I've been able to get mine as low as 3.54 (3.44 with 1 Hurricane proc and 3.33 with 2 Hurricane Procs) while trying to keep crit and haste balanced, i could get it a bit lower if i reforged for more haste as well but felt keeping my crit at least on par or a little ahead was the better choice.

EDIT: Dont know if it has been pointed out but while testing I also noticed that Thundering Skyflare Diamond (haven't picked up a new meta gem as of yet) had absolutely no change in my CS CD http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4...deringtest.jpg

jgRnt · 12/25/10, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Adaptation

getting CS to 3 seconds is not possible in tier 11, I have 1316 Haste and I'm not anywhere close to 3 seconds CS (so 1500 haste is nowhere near enough), with 3 second CS unobtainable its better to keep Crit and Haste relatively balanced (with crit having a slight advantage) according to Redcape's and Exemplar's spreadsheets.

True, from what I understand, 3 sec CS would be possible with around 3.8-4k haste.

RebornTN · 12/25/10, 11:05 AM

With a bit more testing and some reforging i was able to reduce CS to 3.46, 3.36 with Hurricane and 3.26 with double hurricane. This was all while keeping Hit and Expertise cap.

I'm curious if it will be worth using Hurricane over Landslide and reforging of crit to haste? My gear isn't very amazing with mostly 346 and a few epics. I'm also not very used to the spreadsheets so far but i'm trying them out. This just makes me tempted to believe that there must be some possible chance of hitting a 3s CS in T11, just dont know the cost or boost to DPS it would present.