Looks like they might be confirming the Crit vs Haste battle with that kind of itemization. I find it annoying that 2 pieces have both Crit and Haste though, and hence no matter what Stat you choose you will need to pick one of these and reforge out of the stat which you find less important.

The final tier of an expansion is supposedly itemized with an eye toward the ideal for a specific class/spec and uniformly heavy on the red gems. Unfortunately, as we know Mastery is our best stat and has the least overall itemization, I do not believe we can use the itemization as a nail in the coffin of Crit vs Haste. After all, if our best stat is last, why trust the order of the other two? It's also possible to assemble a 4 piece setup with the stats in order of your choice, from Mastery > Haste > Crit to Crit > Haste > Mastery. It's not exactly instruction in how to gear, unless you wear all 5 pieces which has rarely been desired.

Additionally some of the changes could wildly alter stat desirability - I could see arguments the 2H Weap Spec bonus alone could swing in favour of either Haste or Crit, determining the truth should require actual modeling. We'll need class changes to stabilize to semi-final form to be able to accurately define stat desirability. Early PTR is always too prone to changes/reversions which can wildly impact such comparison. On that topic, it's not unheard to have gear stats change a bit before PTR ends. Here's hoping for more Mastery.

Anyone else wince when they see items like the tier hat? 314 of 391/481 (race dependent) desired expertise on one item (even worse, it's an item with both Exp and Hit). Not that there's really much option when it comes to itemization since they don't do 3+ stats on the same item: anything with Hit or Expertise is either going to get a huge amount or the diminishing returns calculation will cause anything like a 30%/70% allocation to be overall undervalued (winds up more like 30%/60% + 10% loss). Blizzard clearly acknowledges the issue (they proposed increasing Hit/Exp requirement each patch of Cata, then decided not to do so), but unfortunately have yet to implement a clever solution.

Actually, based off our current itemization of mastery > crit ~= haste, you just reforge whichever has the bigger number for more mastery (Haste on the t13 gloves, but crit on the t13 shoulders). Now, the stat priorities are bound to change with all these changes but as long as mastery stays on top with crit and haste being relatively close, this is the way I'd recommend reforging.

I'm of two minds about this. With reforging, you can get real close to actual cap values without having to gem/enchant or go for other types of armor (not that it's optimal now anyway), but at the same time, I feel it adds nothing to what I want to see in DPS gear. I don't mind one or the other, but both doesn't feel like damage gear. I guess it really comes down to what my other gear options are and how close I can reforge without going over.

Has anyone thought about, or done some math on, using the following 3
prime glyhps with 4.3
[Glyph of Templar's Verdict]
[Glyph of Exorcism]
[Glyph of Judgement]
while leaving out GoSoT and simply go for exp. via reforging?
Would a flat increase in judgement dmg be superior to the SoT glyph
(concerning the increased 5stack 4.3 dmg), and be superior
to having some more secondary stats like haste / mastery?

I'm no good at doing math, so if anyone has some thoughts on that,
please help me out.

SoT is our best glyph, by far. It's 300 expertise rating, which is equivalent to roughly 150-180 str, depending on your gear, stat weights, and how you end up reforging. The only way you'd ever want to get rid of it is if you are reforging out of expertise everywhere possible, and are still way over the expertise cap. Even then, you'd be better off seeing if you can swap to a less expertise-heavy sidegrade gearset first.

The Judgement glyph will increase in value, but if it's worth using, it won't be replacing SoT.

I assume glyph of CS is still out of the question? I did some quick calculations based on simcraft output (can't actually run it at the moment) and I'm getting 200ish dps for CS and ~400 for exo.
Also, I'm usually getting mastery to be around 1.5 dps per point. Assuming its not much higher for top-end gear,, it seems that GoSoT would rank at around 500 dps, which is close to glyph of Exo. Am I doing something fundamentally wrong, since I don't see the "first by far" everyone is mentioning.

Also, simulationcraft.org shows some very promising data, with rets being 2nd after demo warlocks. That's without T13 bonuses, I'd be very interested to see how they play out. I don't have a way of checking the PTR properly since BH doesn't seem work (gates are always closed) and I didn't manage to get a good party for anything else. I'm surprised at the numbers on heroics bosses, sometimes being as high as 35k dps on non-gimmick fights (in premade gear, which after reforging still has way more crit than mastery); that can be attributed to very short fights (1-1.5 minutes) but still thats quite a bit higher than I see in heroics on live, with slightly better gear.

I have a question here.

I've been inspecting some random armories and have a strange question. I see in some character profiles, where they have a big difference in the amount of Crit/Haste in their gear, and they're reforging towards Crit/Haste, like they should ofc. What I'm trying to say is, if the amount of Crit is greater than Haste, i.e the difference is so big, wouldn't it be a DPS loss to reforge from that Crit to Haste, when the resultant amount of Haste is such that the difference becomes very small, and vice versa.

If simming it to find whether it would be a DPS increase or a decrease is the answer, then please ignore this question. However, following the great debate between Crit and Haste, I can see that the sims favor Crit, whereas Exemplar's theorycrafting prefers Haste, so I'm just kind of confused here.

Specific armory references include Exemplar's Armory, where he/she has reforged a lot of Crit towards Haste. I know its ironic that I should choose his/her armory as an example, but I was just wondering, specifically because of the weird itemization that the current proposed T13 set has.

Also, another point to note towards the Crit/Haste debate, with the recent changes to HoW, as well as Judgement of Truth damage, wouldn't Crit be the stat more favored, as it would make the contribution towards HoW's crit chance bigger than it already is, and impacting Judgement's Crit chance as well? More than Haste, that is, since it would probably have little to no effect on these skills damage.

And yet, no matter what the sims say, each one can be disproved by a lucky string of RNG in either style of stat distribution.

For now, it almost comes down to the (ever so minutely different) playstyle you prefer (generalizing, here):

Crit>Haste - Having your abilities hit slightly harder, with slightly less speed overall,

or...

Haste>Crit - Having a slightly quicker overall speed, while your abilities hit only slightly less as hard.

That's all there is to it. I've tried both sides in simulations and it just leaves me tossing my hands in the air and choosing the one that I simply prefer to play with. (Crit>Haste, personally) Whichever you pick will be trumped by RNG from the other style any day, and yet other days you'll be the one with the lucky streaks.

It doesn't really matter if you have haste>crit or crit>haste, based on what we know now. I favor crit, because haste being worthwhile is a relatively new piece of info, and in a debate, I'll stick with the old standard. Also, I believe haste suffers when there is downtime or target swaps.

I have a simple question, hopefully it wasn't answered in the bulk of the thread because then I've unfortunetly missed it.

Under the effects of lust with my cooldowns popped i've been following the same rotation as always (Inq>CS>HoW>Exo>TV) but recently i've been trying to push more dps during the lust phase to see if we can get Rag to transition to P4 with only 1 meteor. Can anyone tell me if the math indicates that during lust I should just be doing CS>TV>CS etc or sticking to what i've been doing.

This probably seems a little odd for someone doing what i'm trying to do but I haven't been playing Ret all that long and it was only recently expressed to me that maybe I was doing something wrong