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Old 10/14/11, 6:51 AM   #1501
Viveras
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Auchindoun (EU)
During your cooldowns, and especially with Bloodlust, you should always be prioritizing TV. So it would Inq>CS>TV> and then I'm not sure if it's HoW or Exo. It might be dependant on your gear, and you should probably sim it.

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Old 10/15/11, 5:21 AM   #1502
Icos
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Viveras View Post
During your cooldowns, and especially with Bloodlust, you should always be prioritizing TV. So it would Inq>CS>TV> and then I'm not sure if it's HoW or Exo. It might be dependant on your gear, and you should probably sim it.
Wouldn't the haste push exorcism ahead since you'd have more chances to proc another one?

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Old 10/15/11, 7:22 AM   #1503
Malleus
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by Icos View Post
Wouldn't the haste push exorcism ahead since you'd have more chances to proc another one?
There's no need to ever push Exo unless your next white swing will occur in less than one GCD. Even then it would still have lower priority than CS (<3HP), TV and Inquisition refreshes at less than 3 seconds remaining.

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Old 10/15/11, 5:00 PM   #1504
Iroared
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Monk
 
Черный Шрам (EU)
A question - if I get back-to-back exo procs (use exo and get another proc), how far down the priority list does it go due to glyph clipping? E.g. do I have to consider using judgement instead and saving the proc for the next filler (since the chance that I'd get yet another proc within 6 seconds are rather low), or its negligible?

Playing with 4.3 simcraft, I see a very small benefit from prioritizing Exo over HoW (~100 dps), which is surprising given HoW nerf. Glyph of judgement is still showing a ~200 dps loss compared to glyph of exorcism, but that's using T12 gear (and same priorities). I'll try to add code for T13 and make a profile with recently added raid gear.

Last edited by Iroared : 10/15/11 at 5:38 PM.

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Old 10/15/11, 6:46 PM   #1505
Charybdis
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Area 52
Exorcism's priority doesn't change when you get consecutive procs. The only case that really matters is getting a proc, using CS then Exo, and getting another proc before CS comes off cooldown. Even in this scenario, we'd still cast Exo again unless we got a DP proc. The lost damage is negligible since we're always guaranteed to get at least one tick and the vast majority of the time we'll get the full six seconds' worth.

The only time Exorcism's glyph becomes an issue is when chain-casting it, and only a "DPS" specced Holy has the resources to do that. Needless to say, something's wrong if a Holy paladin is trying to DPS.

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Old 10/15/11, 7:37 PM   #1506
Medieve
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Iroared View Post
Playing with 4.3 simcraft, I see a very small benefit from prioritizing Exo over HoW (~100 dps), which is surprising given HoW nerf. Glyph of judgement is still showing a ~200 dps loss compared to glyph of exorcism, but that's using T12 gear (and same priorities). I'll try to add code for T13 and make a profile with recently added raid gear.
I would wait on this. As Exemplar has pointed out, lots of things are subject to change as the PTR moves towards release, and we're not even close to seeing a full gear list yet. Even if we had a full list, it's not unlikely or unheard of gear stats changing as Blizzard gets closer to release.

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Old 10/16/11, 8:17 AM   #1507
Iroared
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Monk
 
Черный Шрам (EU)
Originally Posted by Medieve View Post
I would wait on this. As Exemplar has pointed out, lots of things are subject to change as the PTR moves towards release, and we're not even close to seeing a full gear list yet. Even if we had a full list, it's not unlikely or unheard of gear stats changing as Blizzard gets closer to release.
The gear does look like its full of placeholders. Names and icons are obvious, trinkets most likely will be completely changed too. I figured its more fair to simulate the current bis gear with T13 set bonuses (which look fairly solid and may make it to live) so the numbers can actually be compared to something.
Ok - the simc version that is available for download doesn't have the JoT buff, even though its apparently included in the simulationcraft.org page. T13 is already implemented and can be activated with a couple lines in the profile. It seems to increase dps by another 1.5k compared to T12.

Last edited by Iroared : 10/16/11 at 11:10 AM.

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Old 10/16/11, 5:34 PM   #1508
Medieve
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Turalyon
Originally Posted by Iroared View Post
The gear does look like its full of placeholders. Names and icons are obvious, trinkets most likely will be completely changed too. I figured its more fair to simulate the current bis gear with T13 set bonuses (which look fairly solid and may make it to live) so the numbers can actually be compared to something.
Ok - the simc version that is available for download doesn't have the JoT buff, even though its apparently included in the simulationcraft.org page. T13 is already implemented and can be activated with a couple lines in the profile. It seems to increase dps by another 1.5k compared to T12.
Here's the reason I don't like doing this, and it's at the core of how our secondaries work. As one increases, the relative value of both the others increase compared to the increasing stat. For example, as you stack mastery, haste and crit become more and more desirable at the expense of mastery. It's not always linear, but it's how our secondaries interact.

When I model things, I try to see how our native stats look on our gear, primary and secondary, and see where reforging nets us the highest gain. If we have a lot of native haste on gear, for example, and we can't ever reach the current 1.22 to 1 Mastery to haste/crit ratio, we need to look towards other options in secondary priority. So far I've done most of my expectational modeling based of all stats being relatively equal, then adjusting to see if anything's trending for a fundamental change. So far, nothing has, beyond what I've posted already. What a lot of readers don't understand from the OP is how our secondaries truly interact and change as we gain and lose secondary points. The way haste and mastery interact is very interesting, and it's extremely hard to predict what is worth reaching for, specifically the mythical 3 sec CS, and what we are going to have baseline regardless of gearing/reforging. I'm not sure how Exemplar feels specifically about the matter, but that's what I'm doing right now, going with the wait-and-see.

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Old 10/17/11, 2:49 AM   #1509
gcbirzan
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Medieve View Post
Here's the reason I don't like doing this, and it's at the core of how our secondaries work. As one increases, the relative value of both the others increase compared to the increasing stat. For example, as you stack mastery, haste and crit become more and more desirable at the expense of mastery. It's not always linear, but it's how our secondaries interact.
A bit of nitpicking, but that doesn't apply only to secondaries. As you get more strength, the relative value of other stats changes as well, because not all abilities scale the same with AP.

The fact that people assume that "oh, I read on EJ that mastery is better than crit, so it must be true" is something that's always been a problem and no amount of warnings in the OP will fix that, because things like "it depends on your current gear" will still just make people pick on stat then claim "my playstyle suits my choice". It's even harder to get people to trust some 'rule of thumb' or to get them to use a tool, when two of our tools provide different results.

Going off on a bit of a tangent (and knowing that Exemplar and simulationcraft's ret developer agreed to disagree), the complexities of interactions between stats, if anything, make me believe that a simulation will have a higher chance of producing accurate results (no offence to Exemplar's work). A formulaic 'averaged' solution to our rotation is just less likely to produce better (closer to 'reality) results than a simulation. Of course, a simulation will never be able to (quickly) provide you with the optimal way to reforge/gear, because you have to simulate every possibility, but you can infer which would be the a good reforge strategy for a given 'range' of stats, because barring haste caps, stats' values are continuous functions (at least for retribution paladins).

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Old 10/18/11, 1:44 AM   #1510
Icos
Von Kaiser
 
Icos's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Malleus View Post
There's no need to ever push Exo unless your next white swing will occur in less than one GCD. Even then it would still have lower priority than CS (<3HP), TV and Inquisition refreshes at less than 3 seconds remaining.
I was referring specifically during heroism'd cooldowns, although the only time it would really be applicable is if you had a CS get parried and didn't have a divine purpose proc up. That's a fairly rare situation, although it can happen on some fights (h rag being the one most of us will care about I'd imagine).

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Old 10/18/11, 1:10 PM   #1511
Phantoms
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sen'jin
Something I hadn't noticed before, but now that I think about it since I was going to do some testing with the guild today:

Upon looking over the mechanics of Ultraxion, one of the encounters in Dragon Soul, you can see he's got a passive mechanic which removes his ability to dodge/parry.

In addition, the instability prevents Ultraxion from dodging or parrying attacks, and allows attackers to explot weaknesses from any angle.
Would it not be beneficial to use a different prime glyph other than GoSoT for this fight? And for that matter, to keep a set of gear specifically to disregard expertise for the sake of more raw stats?

Maybe I'm thinking too hard, but it doesn't seem like this is just a temporary fight mechanic unique to the PTR or anything. We'll very likely have to consider these as possibilities for at least this upcoming fight, it seems.

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Old 10/19/11, 2:29 AM   #1512
Jonuts
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Blackrock
If you happen to carry dust on you, it would be worthwhile to switch out GoSoT for practically any DPS glyph on that boss, assuming nothing changes. A separate set of gear though? Undoubtedly, you could run a 0 (or as close to 0 as you can get) expertise set and do more damage. Would it be worthwhile? Depends on how difficult the boss is, and if whether or not your added DPS from that makes a difference. I suspect that the next raid will be a carbon copy of T12, and only the last guy is particularly hard.

Basically, dropping all your expertise will undoubtedly get you a DPS increase (Assuming he can't dodge/parry at all), but it's up to you as to whether or not it's an economic choice to make. For me, personally, unless there is a tight enrage timer and it's a messy DPS race, I wouldn't find it worthwhile to go through that much trouble.

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Old 10/19/11, 8:20 AM   #1513
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Lord Rhyolith does not dodge or parry for 90%+ of the fight (phase 1). Are you presently swapping out glyph and gear? Yes? Great, feel free to do so next raid. No? Why start now?

Swapping Glyph is simple and would provide a bit of DPS, but not a huge swing (at best Glyphs are normally in the 200-300 DPS range, which is vaguely 1% total DPS). Since Glyphs are already situationally useful, I'd even encourage this (Firelands has good opportunities to swap between Divine Protection and Holy Wrath).

No-Expertise gearing tends to be counterproductive. Early on in a tier it winds up being a vast amount of previous tier's raid gear, rather than the upgrades that are dropping. Later on when you've farmed enough to have 2 sets of the present tier's gear you have to ask if it's worth a second set of gear for a farm boss you're demolishing weekly.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 10/19/11, 10:07 AM   #1514
Phantoms
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
No-Expertise gearing tends to be counterproductive. Early on in a tier it winds up being a vast amount of previous tier's raid gear, rather than the upgrades that are dropping. Later on when you've farmed enough to have 2 sets of the present tier's gear you have to ask if it's worth a second set of gear for a farm boss you're demolishing weekly.
I guess I was just throwing ideas out there and hoping to see what other people thought of a hypothetical situation where expertise is no longer required. Yes, the gearing idea was probably a horrible one, but it was a possibility, and it's something I'm sure some people will have on their minds when the time comes that they want to purely top meters, and decide that gearing for 0 expertise and going for other stats will seem to be a viable option. Sorry if this was presented too literally, it was intended to be more of a hypothetical.

As for the glyph, there can't be anything wrong with switching a glyph that gives you expertise when you technically need none of it during the encounter, right? I don't switch GoSoT on Rhyolith but I know that on this fight it's something people will probably consider, so I asked what you guys felt about it.

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Old 10/19/11, 8:04 PM   #1515
 Rodimus Prime
Disciple of Woody Hayes
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Stormreaver
So, after a quick glance over Ultraxion parses from World Top 250s, there's still a significant difference (10k~) between Rets are parsing and where the top of the DPS are parsing. This is true even excluding feral druids.

My own parse is absolute dogshit, but even players (of the parses that I saw) seem to be well behind. This is really frustrating and irritating. If someone is seeing extremely different results, can you post please?

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