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12/25/10, 11:46 AM
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#151
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by RebornTN
With out being able to reach a 3s CS is it better to go with something else over Hurricane (not counting landslide atm)?
I've been able to get mine as low as 3.54 (3.44 with 1 Hurricane proc and 3.33 with 2 Hurricane Procs) while trying to keep crit and haste balanced, i could get it a bit lower if i reforged for more haste as well but felt keeping my crit at least on par or a little ahead was the better choice.
EDIT: Dont know if it has been pointed out but while testing I also noticed that Thundering Skyflare Diamond (haven't picked up a new meta gem as of yet) had absolutely no change in my CS CD http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4...deringtest.jpg
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Thundering Skyflare Diamond does not grant haste, it is just increasing your auto-hit-speed. In terms of functionality it is comparable with the goblin racial.
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12/25/10, 12:15 PM
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#152
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Zuluhed
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Originally Posted by kári
Lets say you got both hit & expertise capped and you got [Heart of Solace] & [Crushing Weight] trinkets.
" [Heart of Rage] drops, You get it. You equip it and notice that you are aloth over expertise cap, Ok crit is best secondary stat to me so lets reforge this trinket to crit. Ok im still way over on my expertise" well now just reforge expertise to best stat you can.
So dont worry about that, you will always gain either crit or haste for unforging that expertise.
Actually that just makes [Heart of Rage] & [License to Slay] even more stronger than my calculations.
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I think you're missing the result of this example. Lets say in your initial setup that you have:
961 hit
481 expertise
800 crit
685 haste
You then upgrade Heart of Solace -> Heart of Rage so you lose 285 haste but gain 321 expertise. None of that expertise is useful to you, but you can reforge it and other gear to get back down to the cap. In the best case, that extra expertise all gets converted into crit leaving you at:
961 hit
481 expertise
1121 crit
400 haste
You've gained 321 crit at the cost of 285 haste (from Heart of Solace), so you should be valuing that trinket as if it has 321 crit on it rather than expertise. In fact, this is the best possible case since you might not be able to get the entire 321 rating boost as crit and might end up gaining some of it as haste instead. (Though, since they are relatively close and you'll be reforging to crit whenever possible I think its ok to just value hit/expertise on gear as if it were crit).
On the other hand, when valuing something like Heart of Solace, it should be OK to value it as if it was reforged to crit since that will always be a gain and won't impact your hit/expertise caps.
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12/25/10, 12:16 PM
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#153
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Glass Joe
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Thanks, did not know as the proc says grants 480 melee and ranged haste if i remember right, its up for such a short time i dont really notice it most of the time.
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12/25/10, 2:35 PM
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#154
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Spinebreaker (EU)
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Originally Posted by chippydip
I think you're missing the result of this example. Lets say in your initial setup that you have:
961 hit
481 expertise
800 crit
685 haste
You then upgrade Heart of Solace -> Heart of Rage so you lose 285 haste but gain 321 expertise. None of that expertise is useful to you, but you can reforge it and other gear to get back down to the cap. In the best case, that extra expertise all gets converted into crit leaving you at:
961 hit
481 expertise
1121 crit
400 haste
You've gained 321 crit at the cost of 285 haste (from Heart of Solace), so you should be valuing that trinket as if it has 321 crit on it rather than expertise. In fact, this is the best possible case since you might not be able to get the entire 321 rating boost as crit and might end up gaining some of it as haste instead. (Though, since they are relatively close and you'll be reforging to crit whenever possible I think its ok to just value hit/expertise on gear as if it were crit).
On the other hand, when valuing something like Heart of Solace, it should be OK to value it as if it was reforged to crit since that will always be a gain and won't impact your hit/expertise caps.
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No, Both [Heart of Solace] & [Heart of Rage] should be counted as reforged to crit (40%). I think you forget the fact that when you are not expertise/hit capped theyre values are bigger than crit/haste and thats why you simply cant for example turn that 321 expertise to 321 crit. And if you really think about that "perfect" situation were you can change every single expertise rating of trinket to crit, You are wearing bad pieces of gear (passive mastery/expertise, haste/expertise etc. simply items without passive crit.) Case should never be like this unless you have forced to take crappy pieces of gear. And that would not be trinket value calculating, too much gear dependant things wich are offcourse included but lets say that trinkets are trinkets. In different gears other trinket can be a little better or worse but they are still in order.
And abit offtopic but [Heart of Solace] Reforged to crit > [Crushing Weight] so in youre example you have replaced wrong trinket.
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12/25/10, 4:23 PM
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#155
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Glass Joe
Human Paladin
Lightninghoof
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The point is that you will already be at expertise/hit cap through reforging. Thus you won't be gaining any expertise/hit b/c you are at the cap.
You also don't have to be wearing "sub-optimal" gear in order to be able to reforge all the expertise to crit/haste. If you have crit/haste pieces you have reforged in order to get to the expertise cap then you can simply change them back. Thus dropping your expertise for crit/haste.
On an unrelated note, does anyone else think stacking haste (rather than crit) is the way to go? Before you start quoting the listed Stat Weightings let me explain. With their relative equal value when completely ungeared I think that stacking a stat reliant on RNG is bad for a spec that already heavily relies on RNG. Haste makes our rotation more consistent and provides us with a larger number of white swings to proc AoW.
Also when using Redcape's spreadsheet in all the gear setups I've plugged in haste is simming equal to or as much as 50% better than crit. This is with roughly 1200-1600 Haste and 900-1200 Crit. Do you think this is haste increasing in value as we gear up or is this just chance?
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12/26/10, 2:21 AM
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#156
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Spinebreaker (EU)
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Originally Posted by Llewllyn
The point is that you will already be at expertise/hit cap through reforging. Thus you won't be gaining any expertise/hit b/c you are at the cap.
You also don't have to be wearing "sub-optimal" gear in order to be able to reforge all the expertise to crit/haste. If you have crit/haste pieces you have reforged in order to get to the expertise cap then you can simply change them back. Thus dropping your expertise for crit/haste.
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Either reforging or unforging you will gain either crit or haste. But thing that you can turn that trinkets 321 expertise to 321 crit should never happen, unless you are wearing bad pieces of gear without passive crit. Offcourse you may wear few items without passive crit but if you can just turn that expertise stright to crit you should really think what kind of gear you should wear.
And still about that that hit/expertise thing, If you still contain hit/expertise cap after obtaining some trinket with lets say expertise, they are still more precious than crit/haste. If you simply cant keep them capped after obtaining item or you are going way over cap (wich both I highly doubt becouse of new reforging system and aloth of different enchants.) then its a different story.
I dont see haste going a head of crit untill maybe last tier of cataclysm were you are able to hard cap youre haste (perhaps). Personally I think that crit is even more better than in both naked stat value calculations.
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12/26/10, 2:40 AM
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#157
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Paladin
Lightbringer
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Originally Posted by kári
Either reforging or unforging you will gain either crit or haste. But thing that you can turn that trinkets 321 expertise to 321 crit should never happen, unless you are wearing bad pieces of gear without passive crit. Offcourse you may wear few items without passive crit but if you can just turn that expertise stright to crit you should really think what kind of gear you should wear.
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Imagine, for a moment, on your other pieces of gear you have reforged 321 crit into expertise (maybe you have a ton of crit/hit items, who knows). You suddenly acquire this trinket with 321 expertise, putting you 321 expertise over the cap. You then decide to unforge all of your gear that was crit -> expertise back into crit. You therefore have the same amount of expertise as before, but you have 321 crit more, essentially turning the 321 expertise to crit. These items do have passive crit and you have therefore turned that 321 extra expertise into 321 crit. Of course, you aren't necessarily going to have reforged 321 crit into expertise, because you could have reforged crit, haste, mastery (or possibly hit, if you have an abundance of hit pieces) into expertise. The worse-case scenario is to treat that 321 expertise as 321 mastery, but on an average case you should consider taking an average of the stat weights of crit, haste, and mastery and treating that as a new weight for the expertise (another complication arises if you unforge expertise into mastery, you would reforge the mastery->crit).
Your new weight would be simply:
(1/3)(7/5)(weight of crit) + (1/3)(weight of haste) + (1/3)(3/5)(weight of mastery) =
[(7/15)(weight of crit) + (1/3)(weight of haste) + (1/5)(weight of mastery)]*321 rating
where 2/5 of your mastery is assumed to be reforged as crit.
EDIT:
I just realized that the amount of scenarios for reforging on gear is very large (e.g. you have crit/mastery gear that you reforged mastery->expertise, but by getting the 321 extra expertise, you unforge it, but cannot reforge that expertise to crit because you already have crit on your gear). Therefore, the most appropriate thing to do for this would be to give a range of "DPS" values per item. You consider the worst case scenario(all that expertise turns to mastery), and you consider the best case scenario (expertise -> crit), and you list the trinket as a DPS gain in the range between the two numbers. Granted, this range may be fairly large, but that is only because the number of possibilities are large as well. This is more valid now, since we have a wide variety of heroic gear to choose from for multiple slots, whereas in BiS gear there really is only the option of a tier piece vs. non-tier piece for the tier slots.
Last edited by Kromix : 12/26/10 at 2:53 AM.
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12/26/10, 7:57 AM
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#158
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Spinebreaker (EU)
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Originally Posted by kári
In different gears other trinket can be a little better or worse but they are still in order.
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^
Originally Posted by Kromix
Imagine, for a moment, on your other pieces of gear you have reforged 321 crit into expertise (maybe you have a ton of crit/hit items, who knows). You suddenly acquire this trinket with 321 expertise, putting you 321 expertise over the cap. You then decide to unforge all of your gear that was crit -> expertise back into crit.
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If you have tons of crit/hit items then you can turn that hit to expertise. Then when you obtain new expertise trinket you unforge expertise to hit and after that you can forge spare hit to haste. You should never nerf youre crit to gain expertise/hit cap unless its really necessary. But if you have aloth crit/hit items you dont have to forge crit off.
The main goal of reforging items is to keep hit/expertise capped and maximize your crit (best secondary stat).
Last edited by kári : 12/26/10 at 8:04 AM.
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12/26/10, 11:55 PM
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#159
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Cho'gall
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In the original post, it says that Swordguard Embroidery is 800 ap, when it's actually 1000 ap, which would bring the average to 250ap I believe, meaning it's a bonus of 74 ap over the other professions.
I have this on my paladin, and went up to a test dummy and tried it out real quick, on the character sheet, my AP went up by 1000 and that number is reflected in the tooltip as well.
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12/27/10, 1:58 AM
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#160
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Glass Joe
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I was going through some of the gear in atlas loot and it was making me wonder if t11 4 piece is even worth it. They are some really really nice off pieces. Is our 4 piece bonus really worth it in contrast to the other pieces we can get.
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12/27/10, 2:19 AM
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#161
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Kawke
I was going through some of the gear in atlas loot and it was making me wonder if t11 4 piece is even worth it. They are some really really nice off pieces. Is our 4 piece bonus really worth it in contrast to the other pieces we can get.
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Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: With the rise of reforging, it will almost universally be that 2 and 4 set bonuses will be worth it, since their value is not taken out of stats on the gear.
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12/27/10, 3:08 AM
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#162
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Nätion
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: With the rise of reforging, it will almost universally be that 2 and 4 set bonuses will be worth it, since their value is not taken out of stats on the gear.
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I'd like to know what the DPS value is of the 4piece set - that's just 1 extra TV every 2 minutes, right?
A related issue: which set item of the 5 (if any) to skip? The gloves and the legs have mastery on them (the legs having quite a bit of mastery), and both slots have off-set pieces without mastery.
Gloves - going from set to offset you'd be trading 89 mastery and 20 haste for 109 crit.
Legs - going from set to offset you'd be trading 137 mastery for 137 haste.
Converting those secondary stats into relative Str value using Redscape's numbers, going with the gloves offset piece would be a Str upgrade of 10.59, while the Leg offset piece would be an upgrade of 9.59 (for the 359 versions).
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12/27/10, 3:38 AM
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#163
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Glass Joe
Human Paladin
Stormreaver (EU)
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Originally Posted by xenikos
I'd like to know what the DPS value is of the 4piece set - that's just 1 extra TV every 2 minutes, right?
A related issue: which set item of the 5 (if any) to skip? The gloves and the legs have mastery on them (the legs having quite a bit of mastery), and both slots have off-set pieces without mastery.
Gloves - going from set to offset you'd be trading 89 mastery and 20 haste for 109 crit.
Legs - going from set to offset you'd be trading 137 mastery for 137 haste.
Converting those secondary stats into relative Str value using Redscape's numbers, going with the gloves offset piece would be a Str upgrade of 10.59, while the Leg offset piece would be an upgrade of 9.59 (for the 359 versions).
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The 4pc set bonus makes your Inq last 40 seconds instead of 30 seconds, meaning you get ~1 extra TV every ½ minute, or something. That's perhaps the idea, someone with more mathematical skills and time do the rest.
How about using the epic PvP gloves for off-set piece? We gain 15 STR, 159 hit and 5% CS damage at the cost of 169 haste and 149 mastery. Judging by the fight about the secondary stats that has been going on for the last couple o' pages, wouldn't be much of a loss on the secondary stats.
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12/27/10, 4:17 AM
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#164
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Glass Joe
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A free TV every 30 seconds would only happen if our Inquisition was permanent =)
Yeah, the pvp gloves have to be considered (at least for normal mode), as does the 2piece PVP bonus vs. the 4piece PVE bonus.
Another thing I didn't mention was the random legs from Al'Akir - not sure exactly how those work, but since they come with a socket bonus that is actually desirable, they probably would be the ideal offset piece if you can get the right combo of secondary stats.
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12/27/10, 6:25 AM
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#165
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Great Tiger
Human Paladin
Doomhammer (EU)
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Originally Posted by Alensia
The 4pc set bonus makes your Inq last 40 seconds instead of 30 seconds, meaning you get ~1 extra TV every ½ minute, or something.
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Keep in mind the bonus is effectively a static +10 seconds to ANY Inquisition you cast, including 1 and 2 HoPo ones, which means in order to maximize the set bonus you could use Inquisition at 1 HoPo every time, netting a double duration bonus (+100% at 1 rather than +33% at 3 HoPo).
Obviously this goes against trying to reduce the number of wasted GCDs to Inquisition, but from my experience so far since we currently do CS -> 2x Filler -> CS we are definitely not as GCD locked as we used to be, neither are all our casts that powerful (if it causes you to delay one ~5k HW or Judgement it's almost negligible).
If anything, I found the best use of Inquisition to be somewhat organic and I think optimum is somewhere in between. Try to always go for 3 HoPo Inquisition to minimize wasted GCDs, but if you find yourself about to run out of Inquisition and have 1-2 HoPo with an upcoming nuke like HoW or Exorcism it's usually best to power a shorter duration Inquisition to keep up the buff than let it drop and wait till 3.
As such, the main benefit of the set bonus is that it will add a lot of convenience/smoothing out of our gameplay, though how relevant it is DPS wise would require some modeling. I would guesstimate that you would want it, but that you're also not ruined if you don't have it ("nice but not required"). Certainly with reforging there's little reason not to go for it.
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