I believe it was a question over whether or not Avenging Wrath was effecting the CS itself, and double dipping on the HoL.

The mastery changes will also likely change our enchanting wishlist slightly depending on final stat weightings post patch (e.g. I'd imagine Enchant Boots - Mastery will now reign supreme)...

I prefer dps values because it makes it easier to compare stats to things that aren't easily represented as stats. For example, its easy to get a rough estimate of what the 2pc ret and prot set bonuses would be worth in dps by looking at recount data from a fight, but how much Str is that equivalent to? You need to actual dps value of Str to figure that out.

In addition, the scales values hide where the differences between your and Redcape's values come from. Is your model valuing Str higher than his? Or are you valuing combat ratings lower? Either one would result in the same set of scaled rating, but obscures where the differences really lie.

As you say, its easy to divide everything by the dps value of strength, but its impossible to go the other direction. I personally find it just as easy to plug dps values into wowhead/lootrank/etc compared to the scaled values. If the site doesn't divide by the sum of the weights like wowhead (I'll never understand why they do this and why there's no way to disable it) you can even get a number for the item with some real-world meaning and see that that minor upgrade is really only worth +10dps or whatever.

I'll honestly be pretty surprised if the PTR is still up in 2 weeks with this patch. This isn't a major content patch by any stretch of the imagination. I suspect the only reason its even up on the PTR is so that they can get a few more eyeballs on the thing to hopefully reduce the amount of hotfixing they've been doing lately. The actual changes, though, are primarily related to stuff that they've already hotfixed and need to update the client to match those changes, or things they just couldn't hotfix but want/need to get changed quickly.

If I had to guess, I'd peg the 18th as the most likely release date for this patch, but I'd be more surprised if it was delayed past that thadon if it showed up this coming Tuesday.

I do agree that these may not be the final numbers. If mastery is really that much better now then I wonder if they've over-buffed us? To that end, though, I think its important for us to be looking at the gearing implications of these changes as well as the mechanics. T11 prot chest, as well as several other tank items, now look even more attractive. The +5/10% CS bonuses from the PvP gloves and prot sets are now more valuable (though, the opportunity cost of completing the set or wearing the gloves is a bit higher now). The PTR is generally Blizzard's best guess at what they think should go live. If there are any major issues with the way things are on the PTR it would be much better to discover them and trying to bring them to Blizzard's attention sooner rather than later.

Built a testbed PTR sheet. I receive about a 10% overall DPS increase with the present changes (I did not model an increase in TV from 235% to 270% - until confirmed otherwise I think someone read a tooltip and got excited).

Priority became:
Inquisition > TV > Exo > HoW > CS > Judge > HW > Cons

In short, the only change is TV jumps up to second place above HoW and Exo. It still appears advantageous to use Zealotry and AW together - should be fairly clean. TV when engaging Zeal+AW, then cycle through HoW, CS, TV, Filler. Occasionally Exo would step in, but it either takes the filler spot or makes that sequence HoW, Exo, CS, TV.

For my gear CS Glyph slightly edges out Exo Glyph. It's possible, even probable, this isn't the case for all gear (such as weapon DPS lagging behind stats). Difference for me is about 0.2% DPS, so it's really marginal either direction and easily folds into RNG fluctuation.

Going back to a +3% crit meta looks to be about a 1% upgrade. Swapping the Crit Rating to some (presently unknown to me) value of Str should also boost the value.

Mastery maps smoothly. Slots just a shade under Expertise in value. Since it became better it also boosts Hit and Expertise a fraction (a miss/dodge means no benefit from Mastery).
In my PTRfaker sheet roughly:

Stat	Value
Str	1
Hit	.296
Exp	.190
Mastery	.184
Crit	.130
Haste	.128

Same format as presently used for apples and apples - not putting DPS per stat to avoid comparison confusion.

Haste is probably about equal with crit - its model remains less than beautiful because of the AoW and DivPurp procs. Mastery has more than doubled in value and is now about 40% ahead of Crit/Haste. It shouldn't appreciably change gemming - still one orange/purple for 20+ Str or two for 30+. Gemming for Mastery bonus or a single-gem 10 Str should still be a minor loss. Str is simply still that far ahead.

Personal assessment - Mastery is too powerful because it goes from notably behind crit/haste to notably ahead. It probably needs a smaller coefficient (1.75% to 2.25% per 1 Mastery) to balance about equal with Crit/Haste. Str blowing away all stats is bad design, but it would take vast rework to correct at this stage, Blizzard is obviously swallowing any bad taste and proceeding. Everything else should be designed to be roughly equal so juggling is more dynamic and not kneejerk "Reforge for X". Since Mastery is getting the facelift, it's the perfect time to peg it to roughly equate the other two stats.

Chippy - fair enough. DPS Increase per Stat will be put in the OP, but don't expect it reveal any root difference between the spreadsheets functionality. If it did, I'd already have dug in and corrected my flaw (or advised Redcape if I thought I saw one in his work). The difference is, at root based on scope and scale of simulation.

Finally - minor bugfix version of my spreadsheet is up with same link.

Did you model our new mastery being affected by Inquisition or left it out until proven otherwise?

Our mastery will definitely be affected by inquistion as stated by a blue post.


While I agree ideally all the secondary stats should be similar I believe it's unrealistic to create a situation where ranking will shift depending on stats, weapon dps, weapon speed etc. The fine tuning for that will be incredible hard, particular when looking at 10 classes/30 speccs. In this case a change to the mastery % is a easy fix, but there will always be 1 secondary stat which is better than the rest and everyone should always reforge to that stat (after hit/exp).

Is there any way to test if there's a cap for Mastery stacking? I ask this wondering if we could end up in a situation like Arpen classes ended-up in Wrath, where they stacked it to 100%, with the stat point value increasing the more of it you had.

As I see our new Mastery, wouldn't this be a similar case?

This is important to discover. 10% dps increase doesn't sound like it would fix all of our damage issues; I read reports of us being 20-30% behind on that during raiding.

I agree and I will add that personally, I'm not particularly fond of the idea of all the secondary stats being perfectly equal. I like the idea of them being different, it's part of their flavour. Of course, the difference should probably be thinner than what it is now but as Nisall said, we aren't in a perfect world.

I spent about 20 minutes on the PTR today and the only useful information I got is that the new mastery procs definitely can't crit.

Aside from that it really feels like Holy Power generation is much lower than on live. Running a normal "rotation" of Inq>TV>Exo>CS>Judge>HW it felt like I had too many free GCDs. I want to say that Divine Purpose needs to be buffed and/or Judgement should always proc a Holy Power.

From the gameplay I managed to have on the PTR yesterday, I do really agree about this too. Probably DP will have to be bumped to 20%, DS should yield 1 HP and maybe Judgement, as well.

Just decided to do some looking into this theory and finding of certain haste gear via Atlasloot

Haste stats found are as follows:

Tier 11 Shoulders: 169
Tier 11 Head: 228
Tier 11 Gloves: 169
Tier 11 Chest: 188
Valor Point Boots: 149
Wrists from BWD: 127
Neck: 127 (Plenty of haste necks avail)
Ring 1: 127
Ring 2: 127 (one is Valor Vendor'd another is from Bastion if I remember right)
Cloak: 127 (Glittering Epidermis - Ascendant Council)
Legs: 228 (Terrastra's Legguards - Ascendant Council)

This alone gives you a haste rating of 1766.
Add in Heart of Solace: 285 Haste

New Total: 2051 Haste

NOW, if you get Crushing Weight, yet again off the Ascendant Council (They must like haste gear or something...) when the proc hits (1926 bonus haste for 15 seconds) Your new total is:

3977 Haste. ONE point short of the ~3978 haste needed for a three second CD on Crus Strike.

This being said, gemming haste to a certain point (not too much, perhaps one +20 str +haste gem or two to push you over that soft cap) could prove beneficial. Further, given you can get to 2051 with current available gear, would it be safe to assume not only that Crushing Weight would be a BiS trink (unless one with more of a haste proc shows up later on) and further tier (12/13) might provide us enough haste to make this cap reachable?

Then again there is the question on how often Crushing Weight may proc and the ICD of its proc. Simply some napkin math, but then again this could show how worthwhile Crush. Weight would be for reaching the cap. Other than using that trink, I highly doubt it would be reachable with current or future tier gear.

Are you also factoring in the 9% haste we get from Judgements of the pure? That is a really big increase and it is up pretty much 100% of the time. That being said I think gemming for haste even if it is a hybrid gem would bring some DPS loss since str is our highest yielding stat. Since mastery is above haste from what the numbers are showing I think its important to have somewhat of a balance now or a model slightly favoring mastery than haste. You are also forgetting that you have a lot of reforging to do if you want to have Crushing Weight and Heart of solace as trinkets. Ultimatly having to reforge either mastery or crit to get up to exp/hit cap and then possibly having to sacrifice some of that str in crushing weight to get you hit/exp cap.

Haste definitely isn't the way to go until T13/T14 when we are like we were in Icc, Not to mention erratic haste from crushing weight definitely isn't good. From the calculations I remember 4K would only be the softcap if you were playing at zero latency which we all know is a rare situation.

Haste needed for 125ms ping.
Looking at needing 4705 Haste for 125 ping, If you redo the calculations for 0 latency then you end up with;

Haste needed for 0 ping.
I think it's safe to say for T11/T12 Haste shouldn't really be bothered with unless Blizzard makes mechanic changes which is entirely possible just seems unlikely.

Trinket procs have an ICD that is 5 times their duration (credit to the Rogue forums), which means [Crushing Weight] has a 75 second ICD.

Going from 359s to 372s alone is roughly a 300~ Haste increase (ignoring trinket slots). If that increase stays constant, we'll be damn close to 3978 during end tier content.

The soft Haste cap is calculated with both Wrath of Air and 3/3 Judgements of the Pure accounted for.

4.5 / (1.05 * 1.09 * (1+3978/12800) = 2.99982 CS cooldown

Quit posting screenshots of recount unless you're testing a specific mechanic. Next person to do so gets a 3 day ban.

This is correct- Hand of Light does not "double dip" on generic Damage boost effects such as Avenging Wrath or Essence of the Blood Queen. It is possible (and entirely probable) that it does gain additional damage from the "Magic Damage Taken" debuff category.

Hand of Light damage seems to be calculated after Armor and damage reduction effects. Is it the same as stated above, but in reverse: Reduced Damage Taken effects will not "double dip" into Hand of Light damage. A Crusader Strike that causes 10,000 damage, but is reduced by 20% due to armor, will still yield damage roughly equal to [10,000 * 0.8 * (1 + %Mastery)].


Now, why my findings were a percentage or so below what the actual value is (19 1/3% instead of 20%), that I do not know.

No, it just means that HoL damage is calculated on top of the actual damage done. The damage itself isn't mitigated by anything, and may or may not benefit from damage increasing debuffs on the mob.

I was just on the ptr and as of last night HoL is not benefiting from Inquisition, and as was stated earlier this doesn't seem to be intended. At least if we take that blue post at face value. That being said, even with out Inquisition and with HoL being based on a strike which has already been mitigated by armor its doing TONS of damage. I loaded my toon and a premade toon up on the ptr to test some of the numbers and the premade can easily get to 40%+ damage by reforging into mastery and maintaining hit/exp caps.

P.S. - the TV "buff" is a tooltip correction as exemplar assumed, you can easily verify this by checking the tooltip before and after putting in the TV glyph.

I wanted to point out that some of the values represented in the form are not true representations of the effects in game, at least not the way they are stated in the above.

Some stats cannot possibly have a linear relationship to other stats as they are not equal translations. Str is a linear relationship where Crit is not, its the chance of 1 event over another event and will have a bell shape to it. Thus it has a "sweet spot" that is optimal and after that point it is not as the chance of an additional event doesn't exceed the benefit of another stat. In addition, haste is a variable stat, its based on time and will have a range due to human error, GCD, lag, and skill use priority. Given all the factors that would translate haste into DPS would be complicated and at best give you a range. Xvalue average player ---> Zvalue best possible player. This again, should have a bell shape since there will be a sweet spot based on realistic play environment (note that could possibly be 3 sec GCD, if and only if, CS was 1st priority which it is not)

Your form is also based on hit/exp cap, which means that those values shouldn't be represented in the form. Its assumed already you will never miss. Running a statistical analysis on a log won't give accurate numbers, it just gives a breakdown of that data set.

Base attributes will be factors of event based attributes so as one goes up so will the other.

It sounds a lot like it works exactly like the late WotLK Scourge Strike (is it still the same?) - the damage dealt by the magical portion is calculated from the melee attack upon it's landing. Scourge Strike was made function like that in WotLK to make UH DKs scale better with Armor Penetration. This might also explain why Hand of Light might not be affected by Inquisition at the moment, as both portions of Scourge Strike were carefully set to scale with specific buffs in a specific way to ensure it won't double-dip on anything (if I remember correctly) - Inquisition might not yet be among the effects it's allowed to scale with in the current PTR build.

It's probably a problem in the way they decided to implement it, not the design by itself. I think it was meant to scale with Inq but they didn't get it right yet. Assuming they want to avoid double-dipping, it won't even after it benefits from Inq since none of the skills HoL is based upon has a holy component to it.

If the current version of HOL goes live my spreadsheet shows that it will improve our overall dps by ~5% and mastery will end up being slightly behind crit and haste. HOL not benefitting from Inquisition or other spell damage buffs means that mastery will be a very useful stat to have and won't be a plague like before but it will still be our worst stat.

What Blizzard might do or how it intends things to work I can't say, but this is a pretty reasonable set of changes. If Inquisition does end up modifying the damage then mastery goes from last to best (of the secondary stats, post capping).