Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Paladins

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05/12/12, 11:22 AM   #1846
saboya
Faceroller
 
saboya's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Firetree
I'm not even questioning HoW being superior. I'm just wondering how having more haste would increase that difference.

Brazil Online
Reply With Quote
Old 05/12/12, 1:21 PM   #1847
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by saboya View Post
I'm not even questioning HoW being superior. I'm just wondering how having more haste would increase that difference.
Some group obviously thinks Exo > HoW. The only big schism of which I'm aware is gearing for Crit or Haste. Since I gear for Haste and for me HoW > Exo, then my only guess as to why someone would want Exo > HoW would possibly be Crit/Haste related. Otherwise I have no clue why they'd want Exo > HoW.

Perhaps rephrase it in the reverse: Excess Crit could somehow make using the Exo before HoW more desirable.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/12/12, 1:31 PM   #1848
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Incorrect, running sims with my gear of Crit>Haste still favors HoW over Exorcism.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/12/12, 10:54 PM   #1849
Capstone
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
I'm assuming you mean in Exemplar's spreadsheet, because SimulationCraft's default priority list has Exo > HoW, and switching the order for my profile or for the BiS profile results in a loss of around 200 DPS.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/13/12, 12:01 AM   #1850
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Correct. In Exemplars Spreadsheet, when running even Crit > Haste it shows HoW as superior to Exorcism.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/13/12, 12:45 PM   #1851
Capstone
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
For what it's worth, SimulationCraft yields somewhat different results for BiS or near-BiS profiles. The default priority list for SimulationCraft is as follows:

CS > JHP > INQ > TV > EXO > HoW > HW > Cons

JHP being judgment with T13 2pc returning HP when cast. Judgment of course drops below HoW during zealotry. The only improvement in DPS I have been able to get when playing with this priority list is by placing Exo between TV (DivPurp) and TV (HP3) for a very marginal gain. This I believe is because you should use Exo before TV (HP) if and only if the CD left on CS is more than 1.5s; otherwise you TV > CS. This priority list also agrees with what players in the clcret topic have developed for T13.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/14/12, 10:10 AM   #1852
saboya
Faceroller
 
saboya's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Firetree
Perfect gameplay would require you to watch swing timer to decide when to Exo, and sometimes you would want to Exo before a TV or HoW, sometimes after. The point I'm trying to make here is that, since you have more haste, you have a higher chance of wasting an Exo proc when you prioritize HoW over Exo.

Brazil Online
Reply With Quote
Old 05/14/12, 1:19 PM   #1853
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Right, but that chance at possibly another Exorcism delays the eCD of HoW, which is guaranteed damage. In a situation with AW/Zeal, you would want to put HoW first to get it on cooldown so another filler slot isn't used by Judge, HW, or Cons.

If AW/Zeal is used outside of Bloodlust/Extreme haste modifiers, you would have optimally 4 Filler abilities. If you used an Exorcism > HoW setup, your third filler could potentially not have AoW procced.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/15/12, 9:19 PM   #1854
Dark
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Scilla
For fights like heroic warlord or hagara, should I delay my cd's to use them during black phase/stunned?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/19/12, 4:50 AM   #1855
Metasaigneur
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal (EU)
For Hagara, yes you should save them for the stun phase, and be sure to finish the transition phase with 3HP to maximise dps during the stun.

For zon'ozz, whether you use CDs right at the beginning or delay them depends on your guild strategy.
If by using them on pull, they are up each time during black phase, perfect.

Personally I use CDs on pull, then rotting skull alone during 1st black phase, then delay my whole set of CDs (AW+Zeal+rotting skull) during 2nd black phase, then RS alone for 3rd, then again the whole bunch of CDs during last black phase, where we pop Bloodlust.

Maybe someone can correct me if this is not the best CD usage possible
So yes you should try to delay your CDs for black phase, but the maximum number of CD usage depends on your strategy (5 or 7 bumps).

France Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/21/12, 9:37 AM   #1856
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Apologies for delay on what may be a dead topic - on vacation for a week.

Exo vs HoW:
Bottom line is - for some people HoW>Exo sims* better, others Exo>HoW sims better. As such I am not going to blanket say in the OP "Everyone should use a specific priority of X" as Sha_ had requested.

* Using tool of your choice, not specifically a reference only to Simcraft which happens to have 'Sim' in its name.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/22/12, 6:26 PM   #1857
Sha_
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Nemesis
I'm kind of consufed, my Exo deals alot more dmg than my HoW, i don't see why i should use HoW even under AW/Zeal if i have AoW procced and need a filler

Brazil Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/12, 9:38 AM   #1858
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Sha_ View Post
I'm kind of confused. My Exo deals a lot more dmg than my HoW. I don't see why I should use HoW, even under AW/Zeal, if I have AoW procced and need a filler.*
It's not a matter of individual damage. It's a matter of total damage. On average - not on single-specific-attack, but on average, you will do more total damage by prioritizing HoW.

Here's an example**:
TimeExo FirstHoW First
0CSCS
1.5JudgeJudge
3ExoHoW
4.5CSCS
6TVTV
7.5HoWExo
9CSCS
10.5JudgeJudge
12HWHoW
13.5CSCS
15TVTV
16.5HoWHW
18CSCS
19.5JudgeJudge
21ConsHoW

TotalsExo FirstHoW First
CS55
Judge33
Exo11
HoW23
HW11
Cons10

I think we can agree 1 HoW > 1 Cons. Total results = more damage.

It may be counter-intuitive, but it has to do with cooldowns and pushback. Average weaponspeed (hasted) is somewhere in the 3.0+ range. At 20% chance to proc, this means you average an AoW proc every 15+ seconds. Even if Exo was double the damage of HoW (it's not), delaying a 15 sec CD by 3 seconds is less of a loss than delaying a 6 sec CD by 3 seconds.

Thinking further about the folks who see HoW>Exo on their modeling - perhaps if they have many AW phases and little under-20%? With 20 seconds under AW you never get the opportunity for a 3rd HoW (because less fillers, more TV), so prioritizing Exo and having that chance for an extra proc could be beneficial. With multiple AW phases each suffering this limitation you would gain a bit from Exo first, and if you had little under-20% then you wouldn't have sufficient time to build up offsetting extra HoWs. Maybe. As fight length shortens with better gear, this multi-AW+little-sub-20% seems the exception and not a rule.

* - Grammar corrections are mine.
** - We're ignoring CS Haste just for cleaner numbers, it doesn't appear to impact the end results of Exo vs HoW.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/23/12, 5:53 PM   #1859
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Its also the same reason why we prioritized CS over Divine Storm back in the Lich King days.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 05/24/12, 3:31 AM   #1860
NoGoal
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Hunter
 
Terenas (EU)
If AoW procs every 15+s on average, wouldn't you use Exo at 21s (18s after the 1st Exo) instead of Cons? It would end with 2 Exo 2 HoW vs 1 Exo 3 HoW. Thus higher damage by prioritizing Exo?

Belgium Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Paladins

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Retribution Concordance - 4.0.1 Exemplar Paladins 482 12/06/10 3:31 PM