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Old 01/06/11, 6:22 PM   #256
HamSlammer
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Paladin
 
Emerald Dream
Originally Posted by Kromix View Post
When you say this, do you mean that it is strictly 20% of the initial landed attack, or is it more? Can you test it with CS and TV and see if the HoL damage is exactly 20% of the damage of the CS and TV or if it is more than 20% of the damage (or whatever % mastery you have with gear).
It should be a code copy of the current Scourge Strike. Since the initial attack already passes certain roll checks (Hit, Expertise) and benefits from certain stats (Crit, Haste), the secondary hit already innately passes/benefits. The only thing that should specifically influence the secondary strikes damage is Inquisition (and other Holy based mechanics). General damage modifiers, like Avenging Wrath, should not effect the secondary strike because it increased the damage on the initial strike.

Furthermore, the secondary strike should be based on actual damage done, IE after damage reductions such as armor and various cooldowns/procs.

TV hits Target A for X
Hand of Light hits Target A for X*Mastery%*(1+Inquisition)

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Old 01/06/11, 6:53 PM   #257
Redcape
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Vek'nilash
Roark, can the Hand of Light proc crit separately? Does it do more damage based on the crit of the CS/TV?

Does the HOL hit do more damage if Inquisition is up?

My Ret paladin spreadsheet: ->here<-

For questions regarding my spreadsheet or otherwise please contact me via PM on the EJ boards and not in game. Thanks.

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Old 01/06/11, 7:13 PM   #258
arthureld
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Balnazzar

The Fury of Angerforge internal cooldown has been drastically reduced so this trinket will build up charges much faster.
This means this trinket will much less annoying, as well.

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Old 01/06/11, 7:50 PM   #259
chippydip
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zuluhed
These changes are definitely making me salivate enough to forgive Blizzard for forcing me to completely rethink my gearing strategy.

The new mastery should easily push TV to first priority since it was pretty close already. If its doing 270% WD up from 235% as someone mentioned, then it should be head-and-shoulders above HoW/Exo. CS will close the gap for similar reasons, but its damage should still be 4th. It will be interesting to see if this puts it ahead of HoW/CS in priority, though. Since the damage gap will narrow and the extra HP from a CS will result in more TV damage it may push ahead on the priority list (prioritizing CS also helps a bit to fill more GCDs which could work in its favor as well).

If this ends up being the case, then it simplifies our rotation a bit with a relatively static CS +2xFiller, repeat (compared to the CS +2 or more fillers based on Exo/HoL procs after the first 2 fillers). It will still occasionally happen that we get a DP (nee HoL) proc right before our 3rd CS and then get a 2nd proc on the TV following the CS. This would lead to a string of 3+ TVs before the next CS, but there's only a 2.25% chance of that happening (about once every 10 minutes).

If CS *doesn't* move ahead of HoW/Exo, then our rotation would seem to get *more* complicated. The priority would be something like TV/Inq > HoW/Exo > CS > other stuff, but if you have a DP proc to burn, but CS is also available and would be your next ability after, then it would be better to use the CS first and the proc after (CS TV instead of TV CS does the same damage, doesn't risk missing a proc, and gets CS off cooldown sooner). What happens if other things besides CS and the DP proc are available, though, is anyone's guess at this point.

Originally Posted by Liagala View Post
Before (assuming haste values too low to be useful):
4 white swings occur in two 4.5 second "rounds". Each has an 11.5% chance at giving 3 hp. 4*.115*3=1.38 HP per 9s.
2 CS occur, giving a guaranteed flat 2 HP
4 fillers occur, and assuming one of them isn't Consecrate, that's a 40% chance each at one holy power. 4*.4*1=1.6 holy power generated in 9s
Total = 1.38+2+1.6=4.98 HP over two 4.5s rounds of attacks.

After (negligible haste values):
2 CS occur, giving a guaranteed flat 2 HP
4 fillers occur, giving a 15% chance each at 3 HP. 4*.15*3=1.8HP per 9s
Total = 2+1.8=3.8 HP over two 4.5s rounds of attacks
4 swings in 9 seconds means you have a 2.25 hasted swing speed. That's either a terrible weapon or quite a bit over "negligible" haste. 3 swings over 9 seconds seems a lot more reasonable to me (3.6 / 1.09 / 1.10 ~= 3.0). This drops the total HP generated to 4.6 in the first case. Still more than the "after" value, but only a ~17% drop.

However, this simple analysis is glossing over a couple key issues. First, its not uncommon under the current system for DP procs to be wasted. Any proc under Zealotry (~17% of our dps time) is automatically wasted. In addition, even small strings of Exo/HoL TVs we get at full HP will end up wasting some procs. Under the new system I see no reason why DP procs would ever be wasted. Second, its not that uncommon for a CS to get pushed back to fit 3+ fillers if Exo/HoL/3 HP happen after using 2 fillers, but this may not be desirable under the new system.

After (3s CS):
3 CS occurs, giving a guaranteed flat 3 HP
3 fillers occur, giving a 15% chance each at 3 HP. 3*.15*3=1.35 HP per 9s
Total = 3+1.35=4.35 HP over three 3s rounds of attacks
This set of changes seems to be a nail in the coffin for 3s CS. You need nearly 4k haste rating to hit that cap which means you need to find gear with ~8k total ratings on it (since the best you can generally do is get about half of an item's rating budget into a particular stat). My current avg ilvl 354 gear has 5356 total ratings (including useless stuff like dodge/parry/resil from gear), so we're still well below the point where this would have been a reality to being with.

Now that mastery seems to be easily the best secondary stat, we'll want to dump as much as possible into it. In order to meet the haste, hit, and exp caps with the remaining 50% of overall item budget, we'd need ~5420 rating points for them which means nearly 11k total rating points. Going from ilvl 200 Naxx gear to 277 ICC stuff was roughly a 2x increase in combat ratings on gear, so its possible we could hit this in late Cata, but its certainly not something we'd have a shot at any time soon with mastery stacking.

It may be worth doing a sanity check, though, to make sure that increased CS/TV damage hasn't boosted the value of a 3.0 CS (and hence haste) to a value that competes with the new mastery.

Last edited by chippydip : 01/06/11 at 8:30 PM.

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Old 01/06/11, 9:37 PM   #260
Joelly
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Jubei'Thos
New strength/3% crit damage meta gem in next patch:
Ptr missing an important change - Forums - World of Warcraft

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Old 01/07/11, 12:01 AM   #261
Babathong
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Alterac Mountains
A few other changes that just went up on battle.net in the last hour include:

All paladins can train rebuke at level 54.

- The Rebuke talent has been replaced with a new passive talent, Sacred Shield. Paladins who had Rebuke before will automatically have Sacred Shield. When reduced below 30% health, paladins gain the Sacred Shield effect. The Sacred Shield absorbs X damage and increases healing received by 20%. Lasts 15 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds. Undispellable.

- Zealotry is no longer dispellable.

- Inquisition is no longer dispellable.

- Word of Glory will no longer reset the swing timer.

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Old 01/07/11, 12:39 AM   #262
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Kromix View Post
When you say this, do you mean that it is strictly 20% of the initial landed attack, or is it more? Can you test it with CS and TV and see if the HoL damage is exactly 20% of the damage of the CS and TV or if it is more than 20% of the damage (or whatever % mastery you have with gear).
It is 20%, or close to it- I was getting (on average) an extra 19.3455% of the Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, or Divine Storm damage as Holy.

Originally Posted by Redcape View Post
Roark, can the Hand of Light proc crit separately? Does it do more damage based on the crit of the CS/TV?

Does the HOL hit do more damage if Inquisition is up?
Hand of Light damage is equal to Damage Dealt * (1 + %Mastery). From the tests preformed, it cannot proc on its own, but if the TV/CS/DS crits, HoL will do more damage accordingly to total around 20% (assuming no Mastery on gear).

Because the PTR is still not flagged for Cataclysm, tests with Inquisition cannot be preformed.
Additionally, I am not sure if Hand of Light will additional damage to targets afflicted with Curse of Elements type effects, but I would assume it would do so.

Finally, it is possible that Hand of Light could suffer from partial resists, as seen from my data not being equal to exactly 20% of the time- I will re-post in a few minutes with findings.

EDIT: The current PTRs are currently offline (for maintenance ?).

Last edited by Ronark : 01/07/11 at 12:45 AM.

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Old 01/07/11, 1:24 AM   #263
chippydip
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zuluhed
From the updated patch notes on mmo-champion.com:

Rebuke can now be trained by all paladins at level 54. Existing characters will need to visit their trainer, even if they had talented Rebuke before.
Not so important for ret (but really nice for prot and situationally for holy I suppose), but...

The Rebuke talent has been replaced with a new passive talent, Sacred Shield. Paladins who had Rebuke before will automatically have Sacred Shield. Sacred When reduced below 30% health, paladins gain the Sacred Shield effect. The Sacred Shield absorbs X damage and increases healing received by 20%. Lasts 15 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds. Undispellable.
We get a cool new talent! It doesn't effect dps directly, but survivability is a big part of most of the new raid encounters, so this should be pretty useful (and cause a lot of PvP QQ I'm sure).

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Old 01/07/11, 3:17 AM   #264
Slate
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Outland (EU)
If Crusader Stirke is going back up in value, does this mean we will want to get the cooldown as close to 3 seconds as possible again? With the additional benefit to Templars Verdict, our rotation may change back to CS, 1 Filler, CS as optimum dps. As such will our best secondary stat be Haste or Mastery?

Overall, I think it is a shift in the right direction and probably should have been our Mastery from the beginning. Looking forward to the changes.

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Old 01/07/11, 4:35 AM   #265
Rammurg
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Dunemaul (EU)
Seeing that the new mastery makes mastery significantly more valuable than haste and crit by Redcape's early calculations, I have a question regarding our stat weights in general: Since Strength is so much ahead of everything else, does that mean we scale ridiculously well with Strength, or just horribly with secondary stats ? The DK stat weights on EJ are shown in the form of DPS gained, and as they say there, it could be easy (and useful) to compare among classes if all were in that form.

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Old 01/07/11, 6:40 AM   #266
sjogren
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Sha'tar (EU)
simc's scale factors are expressed in dps gained... The 359 ret profile (odds are it's far from optimal, I haven't spent a lot of time on it) has these rough dps gains:
1str: 2.3
1exp: 1.3
1hit: 1.9
1crit: 0.9
1haste: 0.8
1mastery: 0.4

I'll try to get the PTR changes implemented over the weekend.

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Old 01/07/11, 6:45 AM   #267
moonsond
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ясеневый лес (EU)
Since Strength is so much ahead of everything else, does that mean we scale ridiculously well with Strength, or just horribly with secondary stats ?
I believe the poor scaling of ratings (due to secondary stat budget on items being relatively low, considering very low rating scaling coefficients for level 85) is the case.

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Old 01/07/11, 7:19 AM   #268
Wraithguard
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Shattered Hand (EU)
With all the changes to Mastery and with CS becoming more powerful, will the 2p tank idea become an interesting choice again?

Also, what about the 5% extra damage on the PvP gloves? Surely, if two pieces with ratings that are off can be interesting for 10%, then one piece with less off rating and 5% could be so as well. If this has already been discussed, then I've missed it and apologize for bringing it up again.

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Old 01/07/11, 8:00 AM   #269
saboya
Faceroller
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Firetree
Originally Posted by Wraithguard View Post
With all the changes to Mastery and with CS becoming more powerful, will the 2p tank idea become an interesting choice again?

Also, what about the 5% extra damage on the PvP gloves? Surely, if two pieces with ratings that are off can be interesting for 10%, then one piece with less off rating and 5% could be so as well. If this has already been discussed, then I've missed it and apologize for bringing it up again.
Early theorycrafting on the new mastery shows that mastery will be a very valuable stat for us. With that in mind, the tier tank chest looks very nice, with the extra STR and tons of mastery. However other tank tier parts lack good itemization for ret, and any gear missing mastery will probably be a big DPS loss for us. And since we'll have a lot less HP to spare, the 4pT11 Ret set looks even better.

Also, stat weights for haste and crit will probably change drastically considering our HP gain without DP and the new mastery scaling with crit.

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Old 01/07/11, 8:27 AM   #270
Destrali
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Lothar
@Ronark correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't AW boost the damage of the CS which would result in higher HOL damage?

"If at first you don't succeed, excessive force is probably the answer."

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