The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 20

Danath · 01/08/11, 4:30 AM

Originally Posted by spanko

I spent about 20 minutes on the PTR today and the only useful information I got is that the new mastery procs definitely can't crit.

Aside from that it really feels like Holy Power generation is much lower than on live. Running a normal "rotation" of Inq>TV>Exo>CS>Judge>HW it felt like I had too many free GCDs. I want to say that Divine Purpose needs to be buffed and/or Judgement should always proc a Holy Power.

From the gameplay I managed to have on the PTR yesterday, I do really agree about this too. Probably DP will have to be bumped to 20%, DS should yield 1 HP and maybe Judgement, as well.

Spyweaver · 01/08/11, 5:23 AM

Conclusion: It is unlikely that even in end-tier Cataclysm gear that it will be possible to fully cap your CS CD. Unless several mechanics severely change, do not attempt to meet the cap via Gemming. Strength is more than twice as advantageous as Haste. Any gems which are Haste rather than Str are overall detrimental to your total DPS.

Just decided to do some looking into this theory and finding of certain haste gear via Atlasloot

Haste stats found are as follows:

Tier 11 Shoulders: 169
Tier 11 Head: 228
Tier 11 Gloves: 169
Tier 11 Chest: 188
Valor Point Boots: 149
Wrists from BWD: 127
Neck: 127 (Plenty of haste necks avail)
Ring 1: 127
Ring 2: 127 (one is Valor Vendor'd another is from Bastion if I remember right)
Cloak: 127 (Glittering Epidermis - Ascendant Council)
Legs: 228 (Terrastra's Legguards - Ascendant Council)

This alone gives you a haste rating of 1766.
Add in Heart of Solace: 285 Haste

New Total: 2051 Haste

NOW, if you get Crushing Weight, yet again off the Ascendant Council (They must like haste gear or something...) when the proc hits (1926 bonus haste for 15 seconds) Your new total is:

3977 Haste. ONE point short of the ~3978 haste needed for a three second CD on Crus Strike.

This being said, gemming haste to a certain point (not too much, perhaps one +20 str +haste gem or two to push you over that soft cap) could prove beneficial. Further, given you can get to 2051 with current available gear, would it be safe to assume not only that Crushing Weight would be a BiS trink (unless one with more of a haste proc shows up later on) and further tier (12/13) might provide us enough haste to make this cap reachable?

Then again there is the question on how often Crushing Weight may proc and the ICD of its proc. Simply some napkin math, but then again this could show how worthwhile Crush. Weight would be for reaching the cap. Other than using that trink, I highly doubt it would be reachable with current or future tier gear.

Kawke · 01/08/11, 5:29 AM

I am pretty excited about the changes but I do have some questions as well. With Mastery becoming our most desirable second stat next to crit do you guys think we should start reforging our haste into mastery to get some sort of a balance? Personally I still think haste is important to us. Even though at the moment it is really hard for us to hit a 3s CS. The closer we are to hitting that the better though because we still have an effect on the CS CD. I have been hearing some people say we should just start to reforge all of our haste into mastery. But don't you think that would also hurt is in the long run? Do you guys think we should aim for a balance between mastery and haste or start to reforge our haste into straight mastery? Also it looks like the boots from exalted Dragonmaw/Wildhammer rep would be most desirable now because of the gain of 20 str compared to the valor boots and the really high mastery it yields.

Kawke · 01/08/11, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by Spyweaver

Just decided to do some looking into this theory and finding of certain haste gear via Atlasloot

Haste stats found are as follows:

Tier 11 Shoulders: 169
Tier 11 Head: 228
Tier 11 Gloves: 169
Tier 11 Chest: 188
Valor Point Boots: 149
Wrists from BWD: 127
Neck: 127 (Plenty of haste necks avail)
Ring 1: 127
Ring 2: 127 (one is Valor Vendor'd another is from Bastion if I remember right)
Cloak: 127 (Glittering Epidermis - Ascendant Council)
Legs: 228 (Terrastra's Legguards - Ascendant Council)

This alone gives you a haste rating of 1766.
Add in Heart of Solace: 285 Haste

New Total: 2051 Haste

NOW, if you get Crushing Weight, yet again off the Ascendant Council (They must like haste gear or something...) when the proc hits (1926 bonus haste for 15 seconds) Your new total is:

3977 Haste. ONE point short of the ~3978 haste needed for a three second CD on Crus Strike.

This being said, gemming haste to a certain point (not too much, perhaps one +20 str +haste gem or two to push you over that soft cap) could prove beneficial. Further, given you can get to 2051 with current available gear, would it be safe to assume not only that Crushing Weight would be a BiS trink (unless one with more of a haste proc shows up later on) and further tier (12/13) might provide us enough haste to make this cap reachable?

Then again there is the question on how often Crushing Weight may proc and the ICD of its proc. Simply some napkin math, but then again this could show how worthwhile Crush. Weight would be for reaching the cap. Other than using that trink, I highly doubt it would be reachable with current or future tier gear.

Are you also factoring in the 9% haste we get from Judgements of the pure? That is a really big increase and it is up pretty much 100% of the time. That being said I think gemming for haste even if it is a hybrid gem would bring some DPS loss since str is our highest yielding stat. Since mastery is above haste from what the numbers are showing I think its important to have somewhat of a balance now or a model slightly favoring mastery than haste. You are also forgetting that you have a lot of reforging to do if you want to have Crushing Weight and Heart of solace as trinkets. Ultimatly having to reforge either mastery or crit to get up to exp/hit cap and then possibly having to sacrifice some of that str in crushing weight to get you hit/exp cap.

Handled · 01/08/11, 6:11 AM

Haste definitely isn't the way to go until T13/T14 when we are like we were in Icc, Not to mention erratic haste from crushing weight definitely isn't good. From the calculations I remember 4K would only be the softcap if you were playing at zero latency which we all know is a rare situation.

Haste needed for 125ms ping.

4.5/1.09/1.05/(3.0-.125) -1 = 0.367599293

0.367599293*12800 = 4705.27095 Haste Rating

4705.27095/128.125 = 36.724066 Haste Percent

Looking at needing 4705 Haste for 125 ping, If you redo the calculations for 0 latency then you end up with;

Haste needed for 0 ping.

4.5/1.09/1.05/(3.0-.0) -1 = 0.31061599

0.31061599*12800 = 3975.88467 - Haste Rating

3975.88467/128.125 = 31.031295 - Haste Percent

I think it's safe to say for T11/T12 Haste shouldn't really be bothered with unless Blizzard makes mechanic changes which is entirely possible just seems unlikely.

HamSlammer · 01/08/11, 6:36 AM

Originally Posted by Spyweaver

Then again there is the question on how often Crushing Weight may proc and the ICD of its proc. Simply some napkin math, but then again this could show how worthwhile Crush. Weight would be for reaching the cap.

Trinket procs have an ICD that is 5 times their duration (credit to the Rogue forums), which means [Crushing Weight] has a 75 second ICD.

Other than using that trink, I highly doubt it would be reachable with current or future tier gear.

Going from 359s to 372s alone is roughly a 300~ Haste increase (ignoring trinket slots). If that increase stays constant, we'll be damn close to 3978 during end tier content.

Originally Posted by Kawke

Are you also factoring in the 9% haste we get from Judgements of the pure?

The soft Haste cap is calculated with both Wrath of Air and 3/3 Judgements of the Pure accounted for.

4.5 / (1.05 * 1.09 * (1+3978/12800) = 2.99982 CS cooldown

• malthrin · 01/08/11, 9:46 AM

Quit posting screenshots of recount unless you're testing a specific mechanic. Next person to do so gets a 3 day ban.

Ronark · 01/08/11, 2:33 PM

Originally Posted by Babathong

I believe it was a question over whether or not Avenging Wrath was effecting the CS itself, and double dipping on the HoL.

This is correct- Hand of Light does not "double dip" on generic Damage boost effects such as Avenging Wrath or Essence of the Blood Queen. It is possible (and entirely probable) that it does gain additional damage from the "Magic Damage Taken" debuff category.

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Just to confirm I'm understanding you properly - Mastery is (roughly) 20% of actual damage inflicted by the attack (i.e. after armour mitigation effects)?

Hand of Light damage seems to be calculated after Armor and damage reduction effects. Is it the same as stated above, but in reverse: Reduced Damage Taken effects will not "double dip" into Hand of Light damage. A Crusader Strike that causes 10,000 damage, but is reduced by 20% due to armor, will still yield damage roughly equal to [10,000 * 0.8 * (1 + %Mastery)].

Now, why my findings were a percentage or so below what the actual value is (19 1/3% instead of 20%), that I do not know.

T.K. · 01/09/11, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ronark

Hand of Light damage seems to be calculated after Armor and damage reduction effects. Is it the same as stated above, but in reverse: Reduced Damage Taken effects will not "double dip" into Hand of Light damage. A Crusader Strike that causes 10,000 damage, but is reduced by 20% due to armor, will still yield damage roughly equal to [10,000 * 0.8 * (1 + %Mastery)].

Now, why my findings were a percentage or so below what the actual value is (19 1/3% instead of 20%), that I do not know.

If it stays like this, wouldn't this mean that the Holy Damage part is being mitigated by armor, what supposedly shouldn't happen?

As I understand, the damage of the first generator attack should be calculated before armor and damage reducing effects and the spawn the Holy secondary attack. After that the physical generator attack get's mitigated by armor and damage reducing effects while the Holy spawned attack get's modified by Inquisition, spell damage taken debuff and so on, no?

Also, I heard reports that the spawned Holy attack is currently NOT benefitting from Inquisition. Could someone confirm/deny this?

saboya · 01/09/11, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by T.K.

If it stays like this, wouldn't this mean that the Holy Damage part is being mitigated by armor, what supposedly shouldn't happen?

As I understand, the damage of the first generator attack should be calculated before armor and damage reducing effects and the spawn the Holy secondary attack. After that the physical generator attack get's mitigated by armor and damage reducing effects while the Holy spawned attack get's modified by Inquisition, spell damage taken debuff and so on, no?

No, it just means that HoL damage is calculated on top of the actual damage done. The damage itself isn't mitigated by anything, and may or may not benefit from damage increasing debuffs on the mob.

Bluerelic · 01/09/11, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by T.K.

If it stays like this, wouldn't this mean that the Holy Damage part is being mitigated by armor, what supposedly shouldn't happen?

As I understand, the damage of the first generator attack should be calculated before armor and damage reducing effects and the spawn the Holy secondary attack. After that the physical generator attack get's mitigated by armor and damage reducing effects while the Holy spawned attack get's modified by Inquisition, spell damage taken debuff and so on, no?

Also, I heard reports that the spawned Holy attack is currently NOT benefitting from Inquisition. Could someone confirm/deny this?

I was just on the ptr and as of last night HoL is not benefiting from Inquisition, and as was stated earlier this doesn't seem to be intended. At least if we take that blue post at face value. That being said, even with out Inquisition and with HoL being based on a strike which has already been mitigated by armor its doing TONS of damage. I loaded my toon and a premade toon up on the ptr to test some of the numbers and the premade can easily get to 40%+ damage by reforging into mastery and maintaining hit/exp caps.

P.S. - the TV "buff" is a tooltip correction as exemplar assumed, you can easily verify this by checking the tooltip before and after putting in the TV glyph.

Talidus · 01/09/11, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

In my PTRfaker sheet roughly:

Stat	Value
Str	1
Hit	.296
Exp	.190
Mastery	.184
Crit	.130
Haste	.128

I wanted to point out that some of the values represented in the form are not true representations of the effects in game, at least not the way they are stated in the above.

Some stats cannot possibly have a linear relationship to other stats as they are not equal translations. Str is a linear relationship where Crit is not, its the chance of 1 event over another event and will have a bell shape to it. Thus it has a "sweet spot" that is optimal and after that point it is not as the chance of an additional event doesn't exceed the benefit of another stat. In addition, haste is a variable stat, its based on time and will have a range due to human error, GCD, lag, and skill use priority. Given all the factors that would translate haste into DPS would be complicated and at best give you a range. Xvalue average player ---> Zvalue best possible player. This again, should have a bell shape since there will be a sweet spot based on realistic play environment (note that could possibly be 3 sec GCD, if and only if, CS was 1st priority which it is not)

Your form is also based on hit/exp cap, which means that those values shouldn't be represented in the form. Its assumed already you will never miss. Running a statistical analysis on a log won't give accurate numbers, it just gives a breakdown of that data set.

Base attributes will be factors of event based attributes so as one goes up so will the other.

Rammurg · 01/09/11, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by T.K.

If it stays like this, wouldn't this mean that the Holy Damage part is being mitigated by armor, what supposedly shouldn't happen?

As I understand, the damage of the first generator attack should be calculated before armor and damage reducing effects and the spawn the Holy secondary attack. After that the physical generator attack get's mitigated by armor and damage reducing effects while the Holy spawned attack get's modified by Inquisition, spell damage taken debuff and so on, no?

It sounds a lot like it works exactly like the late WotLK Scourge Strike (is it still the same?) - the damage dealt by the magical portion is calculated from the melee attack upon it's landing. Scourge Strike was made function like that in WotLK to make UH DKs scale better with Armor Penetration. This might also explain why Hand of Light might not be affected by Inquisition at the moment, as both portions of Scourge Strike were carefully set to scale with specific buffs in a specific way to ensure it won't double-dip on anything (if I remember correctly) - Inquisition might not yet be among the effects it's allowed to scale with in the current PTR build.

saboya · 01/09/11, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Rammurg

It sounds a lot like it works exactly like the late WotLK Scourge Strike (is it still the same?) - the damage dealt by the magical portion is calculated from the melee attack upon it's landing. Scourge Strike was made function like that in WotLK to make UH DKs scale better with Armor Penetration. This might also explain why Hand of Light might not be affected by Inquisition at the moment, as both portions of Scourge Strike were carefully set to scale with specific buffs in a specific way to ensure it won't double-dip on anything (if I remember correctly) - Inquisition might not yet be among the effects it's allowed to scale with in the current PTR build.

It's probably a problem in the way they decided to implement it, not the design by itself. I think it was meant to scale with Inq but they didn't get it right yet. Assuming they want to avoid double-dipping, it won't even after it benefits from Inq since none of the skills HoL is based upon has a holy component to it.

Redcape · 01/09/11, 3:38 PM

If the current version of HOL goes live my spreadsheet shows that it will improve our overall dps by ~5% and mastery will end up being slightly behind crit and haste. HOL not benefitting from Inquisition or other spell damage buffs means that mastery will be a very useful stat to have and won't be a plague like before but it will still be our worst stat.

What Blizzard might do or how it intends things to work I can't say, but this is a pretty reasonable set of changes. If Inquisition does end up modifying the damage then mastery goes from last to best (of the secondary stats, post capping).