The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 23

Tobrexa · 01/11/11, 8:49 PM

Originally Posted by Fordragon

On live TV isnt triggering SoT dmg, atleast my test doesn't show any SoT damage if I only cast TV.

Did you apply Censure first?

Bigbeat · 01/11/11, 10:15 PM

Templar's Verdict most definitely does proc Seal of Truth, and you can very simply test this by stacking Truth to 5 stacks on a target dummy, face your back to it so you don't white swing, and hit TV (since TV is omni-directional). You'll see the SoT proc show up right after TV on your combat log, and if you reset your damage meter right before hand, it'll show up in your damage meter log as well. This also in turn procs Seals of Command.

If this change is in fact SoT seal damage proccing off all single target attacks, one would have to assume that Seals of Command would also proc on these attacks, and a large portion of our damage would once again be tied up in seals.

If this refers to Censure stacking instead, it's still a buff, though not as big as Seals proccing. It would only serve to cut down on our ramp up time and make target switching less punishing.

Fordragon · 01/11/11, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bigbeat

Templar's Verdict most definitely does proc Seal of Truth, and you can very simply test this by stacking Truth to 5 stacks on a target dummy, face your back to it so you don't white swing, and hit TV (since TV is omni-directional). You'll see the SoT proc show up right after TV on your combat log, and if you reset your damage meter right before hand, it'll show up in your damage meter log as well. This also in turn procs Seals of Command.

If this change is in fact SoT seal damage proccing off all single target attacks, one would have to assume that Seals of Command would also proc on these attacks, and a large portion of our damage would once again be tied up in seals.

If this refers to Censure stacking instead, it's still a buff, though not as big as Seals proccing. It would only serve to cut down on our ramp up time and make target switching less punishing.

Tried this before servers went down and when I checked recount there was no SoT proc.

spanko · 01/12/11, 1:34 AM

I just checked on the PTR and Seal of Truth now not only procs from exorcism, judgement, and hammer of wrath, but everything applies censure as well. You can even spam exorcism from range to apply or refresh censure. This change is really nice but it just makes me question why the stacking censure debuff exists at all, you get a 5 stack up in 2 GCDs now and you can do it from ranged.

Ronark · 01/12/11, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by spanko

I just checked on the PTR and Seal of Truth now not only procs from exorcism, judgement, and hammer of wrath, but everything applies censure as well. You can even spam exorcism from range to apply or refresh censure. This change is really nice but it just makes me question why the stacking censure debuff exists at all, you get a 5 stack up in 2 GCDs now and you can do it from ranged.

Good to hear.

Most likely, the mechanic remains because it reduces Burst damage and increases Sustained damage by folding it into a DoT rather than an attack.

EDIT: Does this also mean that Crusader Strike is stacking Censure as well?

Tobrexa · 01/12/11, 3:16 AM

Originally Posted by spanko

I just checked on the PTR and Seal of Truth now not only procs from exorcism, judgement, and hammer of wrath, but everything applies censure as well. You can even spam exorcism from range to apply or refresh censure. This change is really nice but it just makes me question why the stacking censure debuff exists at all, you get a 5 stack up in 2 GCDs now and you can do it from ranged.

I can confirm this.

Furthermore, even Exo, Judgement and HoW proc Seals of Command now. When Censure was up, I even had doubleprocs of SoC on every ability, making it seem as if the SoT proc in itself procs SoC. I don't know if it was like that up until now.

HoL still doesn't appear to be affected by Inquisition, but I had difficulty to really appreciate that without addons and reasonable sample sizes.

Edit:

to clarify: Censure is applied by: CS, Exo, Judgement, white swing, TV and HoW
SoT procs from all these abilities as does SoC, in addition to proccing from SoT (thus SoC doubleprocs from ability+SoT if Censure is up).

Some sidenotes: Exo-dot is still replaced and not rolled into the next, and DS doesn't award a HoPo.

Edit2:

update on Inquisition vs HoL:

I got me a damage tracking addon (recount) and did the following:
2 samples of 100 CS with and without Inq:
HoL average dmg was in the first lot (without Inq) 2818, while in the second (with Inq up) 2789, thus indicating further that HoL does indeed NOT benefit from Inq.
Additionally, it doesn't crit.

Edit3:

Censure is of course also applied by HoW

Ronark · 01/12/11, 3:30 AM

Originally Posted by Tobrexa

Edit: to clarify: Censure is applied by: CS, Exo, Judgement, white swing, TV.
SoT procs from all these abilities as does SoC, in addition to proccing from SoT (thus SoC doubleprocs from ability+SoT if Censure is up).

Thank you. It is rather annoying not being able to go on the PTR myself to review these changes, due to the "You dont have Cataclysm on the PTR!" bug.

Originally Posted by Tobrexa

HoL still doesn't appear to be affected by Inquisition, but I had difficulty to really appreciate that without addons and reasonable sample sizes.

This is still odd. Given what was mentioned earlier in Blue posts, HoL should be increased from Inquisition. Has anyone tried to contact a GM to resolve this issue?

Danath · 01/12/11, 4:07 AM

Originally Posted by Ronark

Thank you. It is rather annoying not being able to go on the PTR myself to review these changes, due to the "You dont have Cataclysm on the PTR!" bug.

This is still odd. Given what was mentioned earlier in Blue posts, HoL should be increased from Inquisition. Has anyone tried to contact a GM to resolve this issue?

Yes, let's try to do this people. I think if HoL (righteously) works with Inquisition, then our changes list will be mostly done for good, finally.

spanko · 01/12/11, 4:22 AM

I don't know if its a bug but Hammer of Wrath seems to have been nerfed. Tooltip says 9290 damage for me but its only hitting for 5600-5800 and criting for 11.5ish on a boss target dummy and that's with AW up.

HamSlammer · 01/12/11, 4:29 AM

I cannot see the damage increase that results from the Seal of Truth change being by design. Some quick napkin math shows it being a staggering 50% increase to SoT output and monstrous 100% increase in Command damage (since command procs from both SoT and Censure applications, which all abilities will now do). This change alone nets 9-10% increase in overall damage.

Danath · 01/12/11, 4:34 AM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

I cannot see the damage increase that results from the Seal of Truth change being by design. Some quick napkin math shows it being a staggering 50% increase to SoT output and monstrous 100% increase in Command damage (since command procs from both SoT and Censure applications, which all abilities will now do). This change alone nets 9-10% increase in overall damage.

Why not? Maybe they just understood that Mastery alone couldn't make it, after all we are more than 5-10% behind on average of current top Recount classes. Anyway, I forwarded a ticket:

Hello, I just tried new Paladin changes and they are good, except that the new Mastery still fails to be affected by Inquisition, which was the entire purpose of the Mastery change according to a blog post by Ghostcrawler on 28th December (stating "Instead, we are redesigning Retribution mastery to add a percentage of the damage of Templar’s Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm as Holy damage (which also plays better with Inqusition").
If you can forward this bug, paladins will thank you.

Maybe if many of us post it, they will acknowledge the issue...Perhaps.

Ineedtofu · 01/12/11, 4:58 AM

Has anyone on the PTR tested the Inquisition bug with censure? (If Inquisition is not up before adding a censure debuff then it does not receive the 30% from Inquisition)

Kinmaul · 01/12/11, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by Tobrexa

update on Inquisition vs HoL:

I got me a damage tracking addon (recount) and did the following:
2 samples of 100 CS with and without Inq:
HoL average dmg was in the first lot (without Inq) 2818, while in the second (with Inq up) 2789, thus indicating further that HoL does indeed NOT benefit from Inq.
Additionally, it doesn't crit.

Do crits from CS/TV increase HoL damage? If so then it makes sense that HoL cannot crit because it would be double dipping on your crit chance.

Mattes · 01/12/11, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by Kinmaul

Do crits from CS/TV increase HoL damage? If so then it makes sense that HoL cannot crit because it would be double dipping on your crit chance.

Well sure, its a flat xx% of cs or tv.

My highest HoL-Tick was around 18k (that being with full mastery-reforging etc., around 34% additional holy damage), so sure, a critting HoL wouldnt make sense at all.

Danath · 01/12/11, 9:25 AM

Anyway, the SoT/SoC damage buff could be coupled with an incoming HoW nerf: Retribution Paladins - 4.0.3

I can confirm I was doing way less damage, on the PTR. This could or could not be intended, but I guess we'll find out soon.

EDIT: Zealotry is also consuming DP procs when it clearly shouldn't, especially with the new design solely relying on DP and CS for HP generation.