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Old 01/12/11, 9:33 AM   #346
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
OP has a new section (at the bottom) trying to dispassionately track the PTR changes with an eye to Ret impact. This segment is trying to simply list the most up-to-date iteration of combined changes since it can get messy to interpret the latest with changes, reversions, undocumented tweaks and things documented, yet not present. The goal is a simple list to avoid confusion of "Someone three posts back said X, next post said Y, and page before said Z, which is the truth?" due to discussing a moving target (and endeavouring to avoid apocrypha).

Please continue discussion of changes as they occur. I'll try to update this section of the OP within 48 hrs of any changes.

Personal 2 cents on changes:
-Inq (and CoE) should impact Mastery. May need to lower the 2.5% per Mastery to balance.
-SoC should not proc from (at least) Exo, Judge, and HoW as they are at least nominally ranged attacks. I have concern about balance if this persists, especially in PvP which drives QQ based untested nerfs. If PTR hits target DPS range, then getting nerfed on live puts us below target.
-Reduced HP generation could reduce GCD lock. Possible positive implications regarding desirability of Haste and shorter CS. Odd implications regarding what is our resource (mana is a joke, GCD not the limiter, only 1 source of HP): Cooldowns?
-Faster SoT application makes target swaps less punishing. Good stuff, even if you have less HP likely carried between targets.

Edit: Yes, I meant HoW, not HW.

Last edited by Exemplar : 01/12/11 at 2:07 PM.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 01/12/11, 12:20 PM   #347
Nätion
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by HamSlammer View Post
I cannot see the damage increase that results from the Seal of Truth change being by design. Some quick napkin math shows it being a staggering 50% increase to SoT output and monstrous 100% increase in Command damage (since command procs from both SoT and Censure applications, which all abilities will now do). This change alone nets 9-10% increase in overall damage.
The SoC double procs are just a consequence of the testing I did a few weeks ago, coupled with this change.

SoC procs on both the application/refresh of Censure from SoT as well as the damage component of SoC, as they are both interactions of the seal with a target.

Here's a list of the procs this change should produce:

SoC:

White: +0
CS: +1
J: +2
Exo: +2
HoW: +2
TV: +1
HW: +0
Cons: +0

SoT Damage:

White: +0
CS: +0
J: +1
Exo: +1
HoW: +1
TV: +0
HW: +0
Cons: +0

SoT apply/refresh Censure:

White: +0
CS: +1
J: +1
Exo: +1
HoW: +1
TV: +1
HW: +0
Cons: +0

From this, additional SoC procs can be seen in the summation of additional SoT damage proc with applications of Censure.

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Old 01/12/11, 12:45 PM   #348
Qolie
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Illidan
With the changes to the application of Censure and the additional SoT/SoC procs from ranged attacks, I'm curious if multi-dotting may in fact be viable. Obviously single target DPS would suffer to an extent, but I think it would be helpful to figure out if stacking Censure on a second target and merely prevent it from falling off would prove useful on multi-target encounters. I don't currently have access to the PTR, so I would greatly appreciate if someone could shed some light on this topic.

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Old 01/12/11, 1:01 PM   #349
chippydip
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zuluhed
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
-Inq (and CoE) should impact Mastery. May need to lower the 2.5% per Mastery to balance.
-Reduced HP generation could reduce GCD lock. Possible positive implications regarding desirability of Haste and shorter CS. Odd implications regarding what is our resource (mana is a joke, GCD not the limiter, only 1 source of HP): Cooldowns?
-Faster SoT application makes target swaps less punishing. Good stuff, even if you have less HP likely carried between targets.
Agreed.

-SoC should not proc from (at least) Exo, Judge, and HW as they are at least nominally ranged attacks. I have concern about balance if this persists, especially in PvP which drives QQ based untested nerfs. If PTR hits target DPS range, then getting nerfed on live puts us below target.
Its only supposed to proc from single-target abilities, so not HW (did you mean HoW?). In any case, you need to be in melee range to get Exo procs and you usually need to have wings up to use HoW which is a DPS loss if you aren't in melee range to take advantage of other abilities (or the target is under 20% and about to die regardless).

This seems like only a minor boost to PvP vs arguably our biggest weakness right now (being kited) so I don't see it being a huge issue. Sure people will QQ, but I don't think it will effect balance to the point where Blizzard is forced to hotfix a change.

On the flip side, this is an awesome buff for fights with an air phase like Atramedes where we can now at least roll Censure throughout.

Originally Posted by Nätion View Post
The SoC double procs are just a consequence of the testing I did a few weeks ago, coupled with this change.
AFAIK the SoC double proc on melee swings has been happening since Cata Beta and isn't all that surprising now that all our single-target attacks act like melee swings for the purposes of Censure/SoT. This does make me wonder how exactly they made this change under the hood since it could have implications for other proc mechancis (Exo, Landslide, etc) which would be worth testing again at some point to see if anything interesting has happened.

Originally Posted by Qolie View Post
With the changes to the application of Censure and the additional SoT/SoC procs from ranged attacks, I'm curious if multi-dotting may in fact be viable. Obviously single target DPS would suffer to an extent, but I think it would be helpful to figure out if stacking Censure on a second target and merely prevent it from falling off would prove useful on multi-target encounters. I don't currently have access to the PTR, so I would greatly appreciate if someone could shed some light on this topic.
It certainly would be much easier now. A "/cast [target=focus] Judgement" would be plenty to keep Censure rolling on a second target and works upto 30 yards away. Using a mouseover macro with additional abilities/targets should be possible as well.

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Old 01/12/11, 1:19 PM   #350
Nätion
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by chippydip View Post
Agreed.
This does make me wonder how exactly they made this change under the hood since it could have implications for other proc mechancis (Exo, Landslide, etc) which would be worth testing again at some point to see if anything interesting has happened.
Yea, this will definitely need some testing for the spreadsheets, but I suspect it will do little to change which enchant is best.

The judgement focus macro is a good idea. WTB some addon that changes your focus to your last target whenever you target switch. Though, I suspect if we were to take advantage of this option, it would get fixed over time, as I am fairly sure it would not be intended, similar to rebuke procing seals.

This is surprisingly similar to the first iteration of Seal of Corruption/Seal of Truth, which applied on all melee hits on a target, and had quite enjoyable interactions with DS and "tossing" seal damage to a target very far away.

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Old 01/12/11, 1:56 PM   #351
saboya
Faceroller
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Firetree
Some people suggest the HoW nerf may be unintended and that it may be dealing physical damage, not holy, and that could be the reason behind the stealth nerf. My account is currently bugged on the PTR, so I cannot test it.

As for the buffs: They all seem very coherent and will solve many issues, however I'm still concerned with our almost non-existant AoE and I feel we should have another HP source, like judgement, only generates HP if used on targets with x5 Censure up, or something like that. And PvP-wise we still lack mobility.

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Old 01/12/11, 2:11 PM   #352
Babathong
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Alterac Mountains
I agree that we should try to get as many of us as possible to log into the PTR and open a ticket regarding Inquisition not currently effecting our Mastery. This is a huge decision they need to make and will alter how we gear for the rest of the expansion. Lets see if we can help them get it right this time around.

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Old 01/12/11, 2:29 PM   #353
Danath
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Les Sentinelles (EU)
Originally Posted by saboya View Post
Some people suggest the HoW nerf may be unintended and that it may be dealing physical damage, not holy, and that could be the reason behind the stealth nerf. My account is currently bugged on the PTR, so I cannot test it.

As for the buffs: They all seem very coherent and will solve many issues, however I'm still concerned with our almost non-existant AoE and I feel we should have another HP source, like judgement, only generates HP if used on targets with x5 Censure up, or something like that. And PvP-wise we still lack mobility.
I just tested and HoW dealt about 10k Holy damage to one of the spirits near Baradin's Base Camp, with a critical hit.
There has been some speculation on MMO-Champion forums that this could be a hint of more changes to HoW, specifically the damage nerf would be the first step of a transformation from finisher to single target filler, always usable spell.

To be honest a change like this could be a positive one. We could use one more filler in the rotation and this would also erase the silly (in my opinion, at least) AW + HoW spam mechanics; which in turn could bring much more space to the very valuable AW+Zealotry, after these changes at least. The "usable under wings" Ret talent part could be changed to make HoW deal more damage at & under 20% health, thus leaving us Retribution Paladins with a useful finisher move in PvP.

Of course, as I said this is speculation at the moment. But really, the damage nerf is a huge one and wouldn't make sense if HoW was to remain exactly as it is right now on live.

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Old 01/12/11, 2:31 PM   #354
Edgewalker
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Babathong View Post
I agree that we should try to get as many of us as possible to log into the PTR and open a ticket regarding Inquisition not currently effecting our Mastery. This is a huge decision they need to make and will alter how we gear for the rest of the expansion. Lets see if we can help them get it right this time around.
It's pretty clear they still have fine tuning left to do on abilities, and also pretty clear that not allowing Inquisition to affect the new mastery would be completely counter productive. I wouldn't worry too much about the bugs, and try to focus on the problems with the class that haven't quite been addressed yet, namely gaps in the rotation due to inconsistent HP generation.

I think the first step to the latter is probably a change to the mechanics of HoW entirely, allowing it to be always available with Inquisition up, or with 5 stacks of Censure, or maybe just available all the time regardless. This will be a good PvE change if so.

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Old 01/12/11, 2:37 PM   #355
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by chippydip View Post
(did you mean HoW?).
Yes, I meant HoW.

SoC clearly states "each time you swing", thus removing at least the "cast" attacks from eligibility makes sense. Reducing it to just autoattack is also legitimate. Lazy coding and piggybacking it off of seal applications or procs (rather than a combined "did an autoattack land, is the source using a seal, and does the source have the talent" trigger) likely lead to unintended SoC proc behaviour.

I remain leery of any situation that causes unusual/unexpected procs. Anything not clearly detailed (such as in the talent tooltip) always has the chance to be unintended on Blizzard's part. Based solely on my own end user experience, it appears that Blizzard will balance classes for overall DPS based on internal trials and PTR trials. This balance often appears to suffer from "can't see the trees for the forest" - they focus on bottom line overall DPS, not sources of the damage or how every change took effect. Too many times for my satisfaction has something rolled live only to later be identified as a bug, hotfixed out, impacting (if not downright crippling) total DPS. Suddenly the class (not always Ret) is notably under performing compared to all others. Months pass before review/correction occurs (heaven forbid they hotfix more damage to a class).

My comment regarding PvP is that often a mechanic like this is ignored by Blizzard until other players repeatedly bring it to their attention. Other players interaction is mostly in the PvP world being hurt by the mechanic. If Blizzard is both truly clueless about the event and didn't intend it, they "bow to QQ" by fixing what they see is a glitch. However, said glitch fixing also invalidates all previous PvE modeling they'd performed and approved for balance.

Under the hood, the only other mechanics which should change would be items where Censure stack/proc was a valid source to proc the other mechanic. Greater Censure procs, greater procs from other mechanic.

Good point on rolling Censure on flight/movement phases.

Judging a not-sealed target to gain and roll a stack is most likely an overall loss. Recall that the first 4 Judgement would be underpowered, as Censure would not yet be at a 5stack and you would not have the full 150% bonus. To get the most mileage you would likely need to target swap, build 5stack on new target (rapidly) while (if necessary) Judging previous target to retain 5stack. Once both have 5stack, then you could swap back to original target and judge-refresh the old.

This would only be of benefit where both targets needed to die (which is the majority of such situations). In a situation where the other targets are simply offtanked or fullheal (Atramedes trash, for example) the extra seal would just be cheesing meters and not gaining productive additional damage (the time/abilities used to build the stack would have killed the primary target at least marginally faster).

There are numerous possibilities for HoW, from always available and Ret talent (not yet implemented) improves in some fashion (under wings, under 20%, whatever), straight out nerf to reduce its desirability in the priority, to accidental change. Until Blizzard states some given direction (either explicitly via a post/patch note, or a talent/ability difference shows a tooltip change) it's hard to discuss. We don't know the intent/goal (if there even is one), so we can't know how close it is to being reached.

Personally inclined to either accidental change or intentional change to make it de-prioritized above 20% and then go-to at that stage (to "shake up" gameplay when that threshold is reached). They can only buff TV and CS so far before PvP explosion on hit occurs, it may be necessary to lower other items damage to have them de-prioritized.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 01/12/11, 6:33 PM   #356
HamSlammer
Don Flamenco
 
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Tauren Paladin
 
Emerald Dream
I would like to clarify that I believe the SoT change will give us more damage than intended, simply because of how Seals of Command interacts with Truth and Censure. Exemplar's post above me, 3rd paragraph, resounds my stance on the issue.

For example, look at [Tiny Abomination in a Jar]. This trinket was only great for Retribution and decent for Enhancement and Mutilate in WotLK. Why was it great for us? It wasn't because we attacked so frequently but because of an absurd amount of wonky melee strike mechanics on debuffs (SoV/C, RV, SM, etc). The same thing happened with Berserking which lead to a higher-than-desired uptime. In the end, TAJ wasn't addressed because without it, Retribution would've been bad-mediocre in ICC.

My overarching point is that Paladins have been plagued/blessed (it's two-sided) with wonky base mechanics for years. Every new item that gets implements get a battery of tests run on it to see which mechanics will oddly interact with it (like my aforementioned example of TAJ or, more currently, DMC: Hurricane) with varying results on nearly every item. I believe, until certain mechanics get redone (read, built anew), nearly every change will have a sort of unintended ripple effect.

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Old 01/12/11, 9:12 PM   #357
Babathong
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about the bugs, and try to focus on the problems with the class that haven't quite been addressed yet, namely gaps in the rotation due to inconsistent HP generation.
With all due respect, how do we know if Mastery not scaling with Inquisition is actually a bug? To me. it falls under the category of a problem with the class changes that has not been addressed yet. Yes, it is completely possible that it is just an oversight that they will fix at some point, but I don't see how it could hurt us to give them feedback on the issue. There are quite a few little issues that we should be giving them feedback on, the mastery/inquisition one is just another.

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Old 01/12/11, 9:24 PM   #358
solacespecs
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kil'Jaeden
Originally Posted by Babathong View Post
With all due respect, how do we know if Mastery not scaling with Inquisition is actually a bug? To me. it falls under the category of a problem with the class changes that has not been addressed yet. Yes, it is completely possible that it is just an oversight that they will fix at some point, but I don't see how it could hurt us to give them feedback on the issue. There are quite a few little issues that we should be giving them feedback on, the mastery/inquisition one is just another.
Because Ghostcrawler explicitly said that it would stack with Inquisition.

Everything else is purely speculation, and we can't do much else other than wait for the final deploy to Live or additional patch notes/builds/clarification.

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Old 01/12/11, 9:40 PM   #359
saboya
Faceroller
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Firetree
Originally Posted by Babathong View Post
With all due respect, how do we know if Mastery not scaling with Inquisition is actually a bug? To me. it falls under the category of a problem with the class changes that has not been addressed yet. Yes, it is completely possible that it is just an oversight that they will fix at some point, but I don't see how it could hurt us to give them feedback on the issue. There are quite a few little issues that we should be giving them feedback on, the mastery/inquisition one is just another.
I believe it's supposed to scale, but it currently isn't due to the way they decided to implement it. I'm just a little suspicious due to the fact that not a single blue post was made about this, or specifically about our new mechanics at all.

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Old 01/12/11, 11:29 PM   #360
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by saboya View Post
I believe it's supposed to scale, but it currently isn't due to the way they decided to implement it. I'm just a little suspicious due to the fact that not a single blue post was made about this, or specifically about our new mechanics at all.
On the contrary,

2011/01/13 04:09:18 AM
Forums- World of Warcraft
Seals of Command will no longer trigger twice on each swing with Seal of Truth.
I guess that settles that, but still nothing regarding Hammer of Wrath damage, or Inquisition interacting with the Mastery. I suggest another testing of these mechanics to see if anything was fixed.

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