The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 25

Alextria · 01/12/11, 11:57 PM

For the People who ask for tools like Rawr maybe this Old/new site is a nice Option until Rawr is ready.
chardev 8 - Cataclysm Beta

Yes there is no dps calc etc but planning your gear with gems enchant and reforging is a nice option.

saboya · 01/12/11, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ronark

On the contrary,

2011/01/13 04:09:18 AM
Forums- World of Warcraft

I guess that settles that, but still nothing regarding Hammer of Wrath damage, or Inquisition interacting with the Mastery. I suggest another testing of these mechanics to see if anything was fixed.

Actually I was referring to blue posts in the forums giving some background for some design decisions. Warlocks and Hunters got plenty of that. Currently we have no idea if those are bugs, unintended consequences of implementation details or simply design decisions.

Alextria · 01/13/11, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ineedtofu

Has anyone on the PTR tested the Inquisition bug with censure? (If Inquisition is not up before adding a censure debuff then it does not receive the 30% from Inquisition)

i have tested around with this on live servers and didn't notice anything of a bug

With SoT up and no Inq hit: 1337dmg crit: 2707dmg
With Sot up and Inq up at 5 censure stacks hit: 1722dmg crit: 3520 dmg
Start with SoR and switching to SoT when Inq is up hit: 1730dmg crit: 3520dmg

the numbers are average dmg of 100 ticks. tested with recount and no gear enchants etc that can procc

When Testing with SoT and Inq up and let it fall of and reactivate some time later you see the number for censure going up an down.
Maybe i have done something really wrong but it seems working as intend. And sry English is not my main language

watersrog · 01/13/11, 4:37 AM

In most of my logs, the damage for Seals of Command is about 5% of my overall DPS, a bit under Seal of Truth. Anyone can clarify what "Seals of Command will no longer trigger twice on each swing with Seal of Truth" means exactly in terms of lost DPS?

Additionally, we have some quirky mechanics making up a small portion of our DPS like 1-2% from Eye for an Eye (which I would love to see gone in PVE) and extra 1-2% from Lightning Strike proccing from every Hammer of Wrath for those of us who have the Darkmoon Card: Hurricane (which will probably be fixed, because I cannot imagine this is intended).

Haste affecting Crusader Strike would be another thing that causes problems as long as we cannot reduce the cooldown to 3 seconds and even then, global cooldown of Exorcism and Holy Wrath will be probably 1 second as opposed to 1.5 seconds from Crusader Strike or Templar's Verdict, which means idle time between some strikes. Add to this haste effects from some trinkets and Bloodlust, it's a pretty messy mechanic.

Nätion · 01/13/11, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by watersrog

In most of my logs, the damage for Seals of Command is about 5% of my overall DPS, a bit under Seal of Truth. Anyone can clarify what "Seals of Command will no longer trigger twice on each swing with Seal of Truth" means exactly in terms of lost DPS?

It's difficult to say for sure what % will be lost, as the number of SoC can vary so widely based on RNG. Numerically however, you will lose 1 SoC proc for each white swing that was done on a target past the first. While this may seem like a large number, due to the relatively low damage of SoC, I would suspect this would be a less than 1% dps loss.

HamSlammer · 01/13/11, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by watersrog

In most of my logs, the damage for Seals of Command is about 5% of my overall DPS, a bit under Seal of Truth. Anyone can clarify what "Seals of Command will no longer trigger twice on each swing with Seal of Truth" means exactly in terms of lost DPS?

Haste affecting Crusader Strike would be another thing that causes problems as long as we cannot reduce the cooldown to 3 seconds and even then, global cooldown of Exorcism and Holy Wrath will be probably 1 second as opposed to 1.5 seconds from Crusader Strike or Templar's Verdict, which means idle time between some strikes. Add to this haste effects from some trinkets and Bloodlust, it's a pretty messy mechanic.

Every Retribution Paladin will lose an a number of SoC procs equal to their melee swings due to Censure not proc'ing it but gain a number of SoC procs equal to their total HoW+Exorcism+JoT amount. What that amounts to is a slight loss in SoC damage, about 10% of it's total, which is a .5%~ DPS loss. However, the gain in SoT procs more than makes up for it, being around a 33% increase in SoT procs for a 2.25-2.5% increase in overall damage. I suspect the increase in Censure uptime swallow up the Command decrease by itself, especially on target-swapping fights and/or ranged fights (IE all of them).

As for Haste effects and their impact on CS/our rotation, it really is a non-issue (a little caveat on that later). I believe, in Exemplar's Spreadsheet, CS + 2x Filler is superior to CS + Filler even at a 3 second Crusader Strike, and Haste effecting spell GCDs only exemplifies it even more. Spells possessing a lower GCD (by virtue of Haste) allows us at times to actually take effect of hasted CS CD. I believe the CS CD scales proportionally with the Spell GCD too.

You only need 597 Haste Rating to reach a 3 second CS CD while under the effects of Bloodlust (assuming JotP and WoA).

For trinket procs (this is my caveat), you could easily reforge around a soft cap and use an addon to track it's procs/uptime so you know when you'd have a 3s CD and when you don't. For instance, you only need 1800 Haste Rating with a heroic [Crushing Weight] which'll be obtainable w/ relative ease in 372 level gear. I'm curious where 4.0.6 will place us in terms of favoring CS + Filler or CS + 2xFiller while having a 3sec CS CD. This could potentially be the gearing style until the 3978 mark in 4.0.6.

Edit - Quick question for Exemplar and Redcape, where does Haste land beyond 3978 Haste currently on each of your respective spreadsheets?

Exemplar · 01/13/11, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

Quick question for Exemplar and Redcape, where does Haste land beyond 3978 Haste currently on each of your respective spreadsheets?

To date I haven't plugged in values that high for weighting (did it once or twice just to see if 1 or 2 fillers recommended) and am in the middle of working on something intensive, so don't want to switch gears. However, it should lessen the value of Haste (since it would no longer enhance CS).

I would expect, but this is not backed up by spreadsheet math, in current live after this point you would clearly have Crit > Haste > Mastery (Mastery is just that bad).

If Mastery is at least equivalent with Crit/Haste after patch, then beyond the 3second (modulus latency*) threshold I would expect Crit/Mastery > Haste.

* - Do recall that Haste beyond 3978 is still useful. Because the game will not allow you to pre-queue CS during its cooldown, pushing it to the point where the cooldown ends prior to 3 seconds by a value equal to your latency, you would have worst case CS (1 GCD), instant-no-latency-queued filler (1 GCD), CS ending during this GCD so you could pre-queue the next CS. Otherwise at exactly 3 seconds it's press CS, wait for latency, no-latency filler, press new CS as soon as GCD ends and again wait for latency.

Babathong · 01/13/11, 4:01 PM

Just got off the PTR and it appears to me that Inquisition could be effecting our Hand of Light procs. With zero mastery on my gear, I put up Inquisition, did 1 TV which hit for 13,766. The HoL damage from this attack was 3,304.

My math skills are anything but stellar, however these numbers seem a little odd to me. 20% of 13,766 is 2,753, which is what the HoL proc should be without Inquisition. If Inquisition is effecting the HoL proc separately, 30% of 2,753 is 825, so the actual HoL proc would be 2,753 + 825 = 3,578. Neither of these numbers seem to be what I would have expected as 3,304 seems too high for it not to be effected by Inquisition and too low to be getting the full 30%.

Kvothe · 01/13/11, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Babathong

Just got off the PTR and it appears to me that Inquisition could be effecting our Hand of Light procs. With zero mastery on my gear, I put up Inquisition, did 1 TV which hit for 13,766. The HoL damage from this attack was 3,304.

Well, if you divide 3,304 by 13,766 you find that HoL did 24.0011% of your TV damage. If you had zero Mastery rating, relying only on the base 8 points of Mastery that would seem to heavily imply that you gain 3% additional damage per point of Mastery rather than the advertised 2.5%. I don't think this has anything to do with Inquisition affecting HoL, but rather gameplay not quite matching the tooltip.

Exemplar · 01/13/11, 4:36 PM

1 data point. What were the values when you did not use Inquisition? Greater or less than the ~24% proc you listed?

Math works out to about 18.5% (24% / 1.3) if that is calculating Inq. Someone needs to get on Blizzard's case regarding simple math. 18.5% != 20%. Same: 24% != 20%. They should at least confirm if they decided to reduce (or increase, if Inq does not function) the base value.

Originally Posted by Kvothe

Well, if you divide 3,304 by 13,766 you find that HoL did 24.0011% of your TV damage. If you had zero Mastery rating, relying only on the base 8 points of Mastery that would seem to heavily imply that you gain 3% additional damage per point of Mastery rather than the advertised 2.5%. I don't think this has anything to do with Inquisition affecting HoL, but rather gameplay not quite matching the tooltip.

Mastery is not a base 8 points. The old implementation gave us a baseline 8% chance to proc a HoL. The new replaces that 8% with a baseline 20% Holy damage proc from CS/DS/TV. Either they've changed the 20% to 24% and Inq doesn't affect, changed it to 18% and Inq affects, or this code is failing at simple division (or multiplication of percentages) and it's supposed to be 20%.

Of course, it could be supreme coding failure and they're doing exactly as Kvothe suggests, and giving us 8 times x% (rather than a flat 20%) and have already changed the Mastery->Damage coefficient (the x in x%).

Babathong · 01/13/11, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

1 data point. What were the values when you did not use Inquisition? Greater or less than the ~24% proc you listed?

Ill test that right now.

Update: Just did 1 CS that hit for 7,317. The HoL hit for 1,756. This is without Inquisition up.

Looks like a flat 24%.

Ran another test with Inquisition up and its coming to 24% as well. Again, I have zero mastery on my gear.

Kvothe · 01/13/11, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Mastery is not a base 8 points. The old implementation gave us a baseline 8% chance to proc a HoL...

I didn't mean to imply that I thought we're still using 8% or any similar concept. I simply meant to say that usually training Mastery and having 0 rating gives an X effect, while every additional point gives Y benefit. X is in every case I know of 8xY; whenever Blizzard buffs or nerfs one of the two, the other changes accordingly. An easy way to tell if what's really happening is that Mastery is scaling at 3% instead of 2.5% is reforging for a bit of Mastery rating and testing damage both with and without Inq. If I'm right, Inq won't make a difference but gaining 1 point of Mastery from gear will make HoL do 27% of strike damage...

eggman · 01/13/11, 6:20 PM

Okay i tried on the PTR and my results indicate that it´s 3% to.

Here are my calculations:

CS hit: 6244
HoL hit: 2702
Mastery:14.43 = 36%

2702/6244 = 0,4327

14.43 * 3 = 43,29

So if my math is correct it´s 3%. don´t know if it´s a bug or intended though.

chippydip · 01/13/11, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kvothe

I didn't mean to imply that I thought we're still using 8% or any similar concept. I simply meant to say that usually training Mastery and having 0 rating gives an X effect, while every additional point gives Y benefit. X is in every case I know of 8xY; whenever Blizzard buffs or nerfs one of the two, the other changes accordingly.

Another easy way to verify that this is how mastery works is to just login to the game (or look at the armory) and look at the mastery tooltip. For example, mine currently states:

Mastery 11.07 (8.00 + 3.07)
Hand of Light
Your autoattacks have a 11% chance to grant Hand of Light, causing your next Holy Power ability to consume no Holy Power and to cast as if 3 Holy Power were consumed. Each point of Mastery increases the chance by an additional 1%.

Mastery rating 550 (+3.07 mastery).

Pretty clear that you are correct that everyone gets an innate 8 mastery before gear and that the "base" values for all masteries are just 8*incremental_benefit. ;-)

Redcape · 01/13/11, 7:03 PM

With these current mechanics here are the weights we can look forward to:

Weapon Speed 155885
Weapon DPS 806

Strength 218
Hit rating 147
Exp rating 107
Crit rating 79
Haste rating 83
Mastery rating 86

Attack Power 99
Agility 66

Overall dps 20,444 (toon in 4pt11, all 359 epics)

Note that I am using the 24%/3% mastery with NO Inq, 135% CS and ignoring the HoW changes since we don't know what they are yet. I am incorporating the new SoT and SoC mechanics as patch notes have reported them.

Also in the same gear as before I am seeing a ~9% dps increase with the new mechanics. If HoW is indeed being nerfed then that will go down but until we have something resembling real data there I am ignoring it.

Mastery ends up being ahead of crit/haste but only by a small amount, which seems like a fine place to be. If they do let Inq modify Mastery damage at this point then Mastery will be our best stat by an enormous margin, enough that we might actually hit single yellow sockets with +10 str bonuses.