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Old 01/15/11, 4:36 AM   #391
Pdawg
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by saboya View Post
Unholy DKs do seem to generate less threat though.
A good portion of an Unholy DK's damage comes from his pet, so the DK himself will produce less threat than non-pet classes.

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Old 01/15/11, 7:13 AM   #392
Ineedtofu
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Mage
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Icos View Post
Synapse Springs change should put Engineering ahead of all other professions for ret, unless I'm doing the math wrong. They'll provide the equivalent of 96 strength (480/20% uptime).
If I'm not mistaken tailoring will still be the best dps profession it averages ~250 AP and the engineering glove gives ~212AP (96*1.05*1.05*2 formula taken from OP under tailoring)

EDIT: I found another interesting topic on the PTR fixes. All PvP 4-piece bonuses have had their flat stat values cut in half. Primary stats are very powerful in Cataclysm, so much so that players were considering using PvP gear in PvE just because of these primary stat bonuses.

Last edited by Ineedtofu : 01/15/11 at 7:19 AM.

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Old 01/15/11, 12:54 PM   #393
Schädel
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gul'dan (EU)
You must take into account that you can and should combine the Synapse Springs with Avenging Wrath which boosts your 480 str. every 2nd time you use them. In Raid circumstances you have a lot of transitions and movement where the tailoring procc is running without any use, while an AV with the gloves can be timed which will provide a higher usage for your overall dps. Ina tank and spank encounter you should not delay AV for the tailoring procc because of a possible loss of AVs used, so the Synapse Springs wins from my point of view.

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Old 01/15/11, 1:36 PM   #394
chippydip
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zuluhed
Synapse Springs now increase Agility, Strength, or Intellect (whichever is highest for the character). In addition, the effect now lasts 10 seconds, down from 12.
10 seconds every minute should give an average of 80 like other profs. Being able to stack the benefit under every other AW+Zeal is theoretically at least a +10% boost, but that also means you're likely not using it exactly on the 1 min mark every time which will counteract at least some of that benefit.

Tailoring seems to be the only bonus that's way out of line still.

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Old 01/15/11, 2:45 PM   #395
Spyweaver
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gurubashi
SO interesting circumstance here in the coming patch.

Which would be more desirable? Our T11 Chest (+ 188 Haste/228 Crit) or our T11 Legs (+ 228 Mastery/188 Hit) with the Mastery buff? Should we forgo the haste bonus to obtain a lot more mastery and then go for the crafted chest that has +mastery (since I didn't see any raid boss drops that have a +mastery chest) or just stick with the idea of getting as much haste as we can and then reforging some of the crit on the Chest to mastery?

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Old 01/15/11, 3:09 PM   #396
saboya
Faceroller
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Firetree
Originally Posted by Spyweaver View Post
SO interesting circumstance here in the coming patch.

Which would be more desirable? Our T11 Chest (+ 188 Haste/228 Crit) or our T11 Legs (+ 228 Mastery/188 Hit) with the Mastery buff? Should we forgo the haste bonus to obtain a lot more mastery and then go for the crafted chest that has +mastery (since I didn't see any raid boss drops that have a +mastery chest) or just stick with the idea of getting as much haste as we can and then reforging some of the crit on the Chest to mastery?
If mastery does become a desirable stat for us, I'd go for 4pcT11 leaving the T11 shoulder out, using the one from Halfus.

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Old 01/15/11, 6:33 PM   #397
Kellendros
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Warsong
Originally Posted by saboya View Post
If mastery does become a desirable stat for us, I'd go for 4pcT11 leaving the T11 shoulder out, using the one from Halfus.

I was under the impression that even if mastery becomes a desirable stat, it would still be far away from STR, leaving both t11 tank chest or the helm from Valiona as our most desirable offsets, one or another, not both of course.

But that will still depend on how it will be applied to live, we are both just speculating. But as it is at this momment, redcape numbers still show STR much more intresting than mastery.

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Old 01/15/11, 6:34 PM   #398
Kinmaul
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Illidan
Seems like Mastery was toned down some on the PTR, perhaps because they realized with the boost from Inq it would be too strong. Has someone been able to determine if Inq effects Mastery in the latest build?

Originally Posted by Kellendros View Post
I was under the impression that even if mastery becomes a desirable stat, it would still be far away from STR, leaving both t11 tank chest or the helm from Valiona as our most desirable offsets, one or another, not both of course.

But that will still depend on how it will be applied to live, we are both just speculating, but as it is at this momment, redcape numbers still show STR mcuh intresting than mastery.
The tanking helm from Valiona has already had its extra str converted into parry rating to make it less attractive to dps; I haven't heard anything about the t11 tanking chest yet, but I'm sure it will be changed as well. The Mastery comparisons in this thread were related to Mastery/Haste/Crit, I doubt anyone thought the boost was going to put Mastery ahead of Str. We still gem for pure Str, but intead of reforging mastery off of gear we will be trying to get as much as possible.

Last edited by Kinmaul : 01/15/11 at 6:41 PM.

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Old 01/15/11, 10:17 PM   #399
Danath
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Les Sentinelles (EU)
Originally Posted by Kinmaul View Post
Seems like Mastery was toned down some on the PTR, perhaps because they realized with the boost from Inq it would be too strong. Has someone been able to determine if Inq effects Mastery in the latest build?
The build is still the old one, so no changes really (which is a bit odd, since we've had patch notes for a while now).

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Old 01/15/11, 10:53 PM   #400
gtmeteor
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I was writing a deep post about gear list and got screwed by not logging in ><
Anyways, what appears to be post 4.0.6 preHC bis list for Engineers is:

H: [Reinforced Bio-Optic Killshades] Mastery+Hit
N: [Buc-Zakai Choker]
S: [Reinforced Sapphirium Pauldrons]
B: [Floating Web]
C: [Reinforced Sapphirium Battleplate]
W: [Electron Inductor Coils]
H: [Reinforced Sapphirium Gauntlets]
W: [Belt of the Ferocious Wolf]
L: [Reinforced Sapphirium Legplates]
F: [Massacre Treads] Expertise > Haste
R: [Band of Bees]
R: [Blauvelt's Family Crest]
T: [Heart of Rage] Expertise > Mastery
T: [Darkmoon Card: Hurricane]
W: [Reclaimed Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood]
R: [Relic of Aggramar]

Non-engineers replace [Reinforced Bio-Optic Killshades] with [Reinforced Sapphirium Helmet] and you'll have to play with reforge a bit to get rid of the Expertise and get more hit.

@Neldarie - just use [Helm of Maddening Whispers] instead of tier helm. SoT glyph is just THAT good.

EDIT: screw WoWhead for not putting Heroic tag on Halfus tanking bracers ><
EDIT2: Recalculated trinkets.

Last edited by gtmeteor : 01/16/11 at 3:44 AM.

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Old 01/16/11, 2:53 AM   #401
Smuggins
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Stonemaul
So isn't License to Slay BiS for the simple reason that it overbudgets str compared to every other trinket?

H Heart of Rage

Exp 363
2178 Str for 20 Seconds. I was under the impression that trinket procs provide close to the same value as the static stat value on the trinket when considering uptime so ==> 363 (16.67% x 2178 = 363.07)

License to slay

321 Hit
380 passive str after ramp up.

So you lose out on 42 secondary stat points compared to the heroic heart or rage (or other heroic melee trinkets for that matter) but you gain 17 str.

17 str > 42 secondary stat rating

Sure there is a ramp up time as well as not being able to time the icd with other effects, but this seems like a real winner. That is unless 4.06 really screws that much with the secondary stat weights.

My apologies if I'm missing something

Last edited by Smuggins : 01/16/11 at 3:17 AM.

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Old 01/16/11, 3:43 AM   #402
gtmeteor
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Redcape View Post
With these current mechanics here are the weights we can look forward to:
Weapon Speed 155885
Weapon DPS 806

Strength 218
Hit rating 147
Exp rating 107
Crit rating 79
Haste rating 83
Mastery rating 86

Attack Power 99
Agility 66
I was using these stat weights.

Licence to Slay - 380 Str with a chance of dropping it all.
Heart of Rage - 1926 Str for 20s with ICD of 90s which makes it - 1926*2/9 = 428. With a chance of triggering at the wrong time.

Basically IMO Heart of Rage is better. And since you can change trinkets on the fly by just reforging some gear - if you prefer Licence to Slay - feel free to use it.

I haven't included DMC:H since I didnt do the math for it... :/
After doing the math it seems that DMC:H proc should be something in the lines of 700~DPS, which compared to Crushing Weight's 321 median haste is... much better. Tbh this would make DMC:H the best trinket.

And seeing how Heart of Rage gives 428 median STR I would probably go with DMC:H + Heart of Rage.
Thus making the trinket list:

1. DMC:H (321 STR + 700DPS)
2. Heart of Rage (428 mSTR + 192Exp / 128Mas)
3. License to Slay (380 mSTR + 321Hit)
4. Crushing Weight (321 STR + 321 mHas)

Correct me if I was somewhere wrong >_>

Last edited by gtmeteor : 01/16/11 at 3:51 AM.

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Old 01/16/11, 4:07 AM   #403
Smuggins
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Stonemaul
Originally Posted by gtmeteor View Post
I was using these stat weights.

Licence to Slay - 380 Str with a chance of dropping it all.
Heart of Rage - 1926 Str for 20s with ICD of 90s which makes it - 1926*2/9 = 428. With a chance of triggering at the wrong time.

Basically IMO Heart of Rage is better. And since you can change trinkets on the fly by just reforging some gear - if you prefer Licence to Slay - feel free to use it.

I haven't included DMC:H since I didnt do the math for it... :/
After doing the math it seems that DMC:H proc should be something in the lines of 700~DPS, which compared to Crushing Weight's 321 median haste is... much better. Tbh this would make DMC:H the best trinket.

And seeing how Heart of Rage gives 428 median STR I would probably go with DMC:H + Heart of Rage.
Thus making the trinket list:

1. DMC:H (321 STR + 700DPS)
2. Heart of Rage (428 mSTR + 192Exp / 128Mas)
3. License to Slay (380 mSTR + 321Hit)
4. Crushing Weight (321 STR + 321 mHas)

Correct me if I was somewhere wrong >_>
That would be assuming Heart of Rage has 100% chance to proc after the icd, which it doesn't.

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Old 01/16/11, 4:25 AM   #404
Mewee
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Also keep in mind, that the place of DMC:H is still very much up in the air after the patch, because of how it interacts with HoW. Currently on the PTR, HoW has been nerfed considerably (does around ~50% of its Live damage), which some people have speculated could be a redesign of the ability to being usable all the time as an extra filler, and not just under AW.

This will impact the value of the darkmoon card considerably, as it currently has 100% proc chance on HoW. We still don't know if this is a bug, and wether or not it's going to be fixed, however we can assume a few different destinies for DMC:H:

1) HoW damage nerf will stay as is, and keeps it's current conditionals. This puts the ability way down in priority, and thus the value of DMC:H will go down, likely dethroning it as our definite BiS trinket.
2) HoW damage nerf stays, but conditionals change. It is now always usable as an appropriate filler and will fit in somewhere between CS and Judge in the prio list. This will be a MASSIVE buff to DMC:H, as this will basically mean a free proc every 6 seconds.
3) HoW damage nerf is unintended, and both conditionals and damage will stay as on live. DMC:H keeps it's current ranking as our BiS trinket by a slight margin

and lastly

4) DMC:H proccing off of HoW guaranteed, is identified as a bug and fixed. This will lower the value of the trinket considerably in any of the former 3 cases.

Basically it's impossible to tell how good it's going to be, before we get better clarification on the intent with HoW, and wether the 100% proc chance will be changed.

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Old 01/16/11, 5:03 AM   #405
chippydip
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zuluhed
Originally Posted by gtmeteor View Post
Heart of Rage - 1926 Str for 20s with ICD of 90s which makes it - 1926*2/9 = 428. With a chance of triggering at the wrong time.
If this is true then its almost certainly better than license to slay. It also means that Heart of Rage probably isn't working as intended (I'd be really curious to see where you got the 90s ICD from, though).

My understanding is that Cata trinkets are universally supposed to have an ICD that's 5 times their proc length, so the expected ICD for Heart of Rage would be 100 second. Furthermore, proc rates seem to be much lower across the board, so there will be some time after the ICD finishes before you actually get the proc again (wowhead lists the proc chance at 10%). Without knowing exactly what can trigger the proc its hard to tell for sure, but this lag could be anywhere from about 6 seconds on average (if auto-attacks and specials all get a double proc chance due to SoT) to around 30 seconds average (if only auto-attacks have a single proc chance).

On a somewhat related note: Blizzard seems to value these sorts of procs as if they had 1/6th uptime (which makes sense if the ICD is 5x the proc length plus some extra time before it procs again). Strangely, on use trinkets seem to be valued at 1/5th uptime when their proc lasts for 1/6th of their cooldown. This is what makes things like Impatience of Youth seem to be under budget, but its pretty clear from looking at a list of trinkets with "on use" effects that its like this across the board. Perhaps they figure the predictability makes them more valuable--if you're popping wings every time you use a trinket then you're getting ~20% more benefit out of it which brings it roughly in line with proc trinkets.

Looking at License to Slay from a budget perspective, fully stacked its worth 380 points, but its budget should only be 321 points. This means you need to get something like 85% uptime for it to be on-par with other 359 trinkets. If you can do better than that (which you can in a lot of current fights) then it should be effectively over budget. If you can get above ~95% uptime (which requires a ~5 min fight assuming a 30 second ramp up time) then its on par with the ~363 str that a 372 trinket would be expected to provide. To make up for the 321 hit compared to 363 rating points you'd get on a 372 trinket you'd need to get a bit more uptime out of it (better than 98% which requires nearly a 13 minute fight). So, License to Slay might not be 2nd BiS, but its should be fairly close to many of the 372 trinkets on most fights budget-wise (and noticeably above all the 359 trinkets). The detailed ordering, however, will depend on the specific effective cooldowns of the proc trinkets and if they get any extra benefit from cooldown stacking.

(From my limited testing, License to Slay stacks only from auto-attacks. Assuming a 3 second swing timer, it will take ~30 second to get the full 10 stacks up. Since the stacks are building during this time, you average a half stack over that first 30 seconds--or equivalently, you have nothing for 15 seconds and then a full stack thereafter. To calculate fight time required for a certain uptime percentage: 15 / (1 - desired_uptime) = fight_length).

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