I ran a test regarding stat ratios with my simulator a few days ago. Basically, I had it divide 4000 combat rating points every possible way between mastery, crit, and haste (in 200 point increments) and keep track of the top dps results. All of the top results had essentially everything dumped into mastery. In reality, the best you can probably do is about half your rating points into mastery, hit/exp to cap, and the rest into crit with very little haste (for example, 2000 mastery, 961 hit, 481 exp, 558 crit if you have 4000 points to play with). (Also note that this would have tested situations with enough haste to hit a 3s CS, but that just didn't seem worth pursuing at this gear level).
Re: Ratios: The recent simcraft output shows a similarly significant mastery:crit ratio. Though I'm not sure whether the simcraft stat allocation is determined from iterating through sims or another source (e.g. this thread, which has already mentioned that particular ratio).
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but DMC:H is no longer proc'ing 100% on HoW. Not sure if overall proc chance is lower, but it went from average 4.4% of my dmg in 4.0.3 to 1.5% across all of last night as of 4.0.6.
Looks like preliminary reports have [Big Daddy] learn-able from trainer in 4.0.6. And much like Saronite Bombs, are not on the GCD. Another thing to push Engineering above the other tradeskills.
HoL
I cannot comment on HoL or GoAK threat performing in an unexpected fashion, but can we stop discussing HoL proc chance? Hijacking Streetlightout's log for a different purpose: I counted 1206 abilities which are eligible to proc HoL. 113 HoL procs. That's a 9.4% overall proc rate (bad luck/RNG?). Closer examination of the log directly shows a few double and triple procs, but no quadruple.
HoL proc rate seems to be functioning fine, chain procs will occur. 15% is a relatively high chance, go back and read my breakdown of chance to get multiple procs - they're also relatively high.
You mean Divine Purpose right?
I checked my log from last night. I proc'd Divine Purpose 140 times out of 1127 possible attacks (CS, DS, Judge, TV, Exo, HW, HoW; is that the right list? lol). That's 12.4% and there was definitely some chain proc'ing from TV going on last night. Also some possible reaction time factors, i.e. hitting something other than TV when Divine Purpose was proc'd, thus wasting the DivPurp. Oh, I also was using CS if <3 HP even if DivPurp was up. Also with DS & HW I counted the number of hits, which was a small sample size so not a big impact but is that even applicable? If you hit 5 targets it's still only 1 chance to proc DivPurp or do all 5 check for the proc? But reducing the count for those aoe attacks will only increase the % anyway.
Even with all that, TV dmg wasn't as high as I expected.
CS - 14.7%
TV - 13.4%
HoL - 13.3%
Melee - 11.8%
Censure - 10.2%
Exorcism w/glyph - 8.9%
SoT - 8.4%
Then a drop to everything else around 5%.
I wouldn't say my rotations last night were solid, unpracticed is more like it, or even sloppy is probably a better word. But I'm surprised to see SO much passive dmg, only 3 of the top 7 sources of dmg are buttons we push. I suppose you could roll HoL into CS/TV. Probably just patch shock at seeing the new mastery in recount. Adding up HW, Judge, HoW, and even consecration doesn't even reach CS or TV levels. That's a lot of extra buttons for such a small % of dmg done.
Originally Posted by XxPwnographyxX
was just curious if the main post was completely up to date? I have been following this thread for awihle, and the FCFS posted on the 1st post conflicts with what I had seen Redcape post a few pages back.
I setup my clcInfo to match the original post's rotation. After reforging away from Haste and to Mastery I wasn't overly impressed with my DPS. I thought a more controlled RNG would have helped more, along with all the Mastery I was stuck with in 4.0.3 now being useful.
I used this priority last night.
Inq > CS* > TV > HoW > Exo > Judge > Cons
*under 3 HP of course, even if Divine Purpose was up.
Though I don't recall if I put HoW or Exo higher, so they might be switched. /shrug
I think a lot of people are making a mistake when trying to calculate their DP procs of counting DS & HW hits. I calculated my proc rate on several single target fights, such as Magmaw & H Chimaeron and my proc rate was where it should be (14-16%) but noticed on others it was around 12%. I realized I was counting all DS & HW hits which is fine for single target fights, but is very skewed on others, such as H Maloriak.
Doesn't DS and HW have a flat 15% chance to proc no matter how many targets (not 15% per target affected)?
Yes, but if you count hits in the log instead of casts of the spell it would make your proc rate look lower than if you counted only casts. He is saying this is why some people seem to think the proc rate is lower than expected.
EDIT* The correct way to do it would be to manually look at each HW hit in the log and determine how many targets were hit. Since HW splits among targets it would be possible to calculate actual cast # instead of just hits.
Just felt like I'd add to the discussion about our threat.
Pre-patch, there were many times where my threat would be close to 110%, but it would never push over that point. This typically would only occur in the beginning of the fight, after popping cds. Post patch, threat seems to be very sketchy, as I was needing at least 2 salv's in order to not pass the tanks. Again, it only happens in the beginning of the fight, and its not even like I am popping wings in the first 10 seconds. Tanks are getting full rounds of ToTT and MD's, but Ret threat just seems obnoxiously high right now. The only thing I feel like we can do is delay cd's a little longer, otherwise we are throttling dps, however doing so can end up meaning you dont get that extra round of cd's at the end of the fight.
Re: Ratios: The recent simcraft output shows a similarly significant mastery:crit ratio. Though I'm not sure whether the simcraft stat allocation is determined from iterating through sims or another source (e.g. this thread, which has already mentioned that particular ratio).
I assume those rankings were made under patchwerk conditions? Aside from this, how much can we them? The gearchoice seems lacking, Dragon Bone Warhelm and Crushing Weight as well as str/crit gems for a 10str socket bonus are kinda out of place in a "BiS list".
A perk that was not listed on the official patch notes has come to my attention, it's of particular note now that Engineering's effectiveness has been considerably boosted and many have picked the profession up.
Big Daddy bombs have been added to the game from the Goblin Engineer trainer in Dalaran. They seem to work in a very similar way to how the Saronite Bombs of wrath did; they have a 1 minute cooldown, 30 yard range and hit for larger than advertised (self-buffed was seeing 12-12.5k hits).
They are also off the GCD but have 0.5 second cast time, meaning no running and bombing thus resetting the swing timer. This obviously heavily reduces their effectiveness, though benefit may still remain in heavy AoE scenarios and very particular boss fights.
Edited to compensate for heavy lack of thought on my part.
A perk that was not listed on the official patch notes has come to my attention, it's of particular note now that Engineering's effectiveness has been considerably boosted and many have picked the profession up.
Big Daddy bombs have been added to the game from the Goblin Engineer trainer in Dalaran. They seem to work in a very similar way to how the Saronite Bombs of wrath did; they have a 1 minute cooldown, 30 yard range and hit for larger than advertised (unbuffed was seeing 12-12.5k hits). They are also off the GCD but have 0.5 second cast time, meaning no running and bombing.
Currently quite costly at 6 elementium bars and 1 electrified ether per 3x craft, they still add a notable dps increase.
Even with the cast time? Cast time = autoattack stops...
You mean Divine Purpose right?
I wouldn't say my rotations last night were solid, unpracticed is more like it, or even sloppy is probably a better word. But I'm surprised to see SO much passive dmg, only 3 of the top 7 sources of dmg are buttons we push. I suppose you could roll HoL into CS/TV. Probably just patch shock at seeing the new mastery in recount. Adding up HW, Judge, HoW, and even consecration doesn't even reach CS or TV levels. That's a lot of extra buttons for such a small % of dmg done
The best reasoning for this is Inquisition. In away, the passive damage listed (HoL, Censure, SoT, SoC) are brought up due to effective use of managing Inquisition. A downtime between casts dramatically reduces these damage outputs, and refreshing Inquisition too soon causes lost TVs and wasted GCDs (This assumes no T11 4pc bonus).
Addendum:
Originally Posted by blackacres
Even with the cast time? Cast time = autoattack stops...
It is presumed that they do not restart your auto attack or interrupt the swing time, just like Saronite Bombs didn't.
I assume those rankings were made under patchwerk conditions? Aside from this, how much can we them? The gearchoice seems lacking, Dragon Bone Warhelm and Crushing Weight as well as str/crit gems for a 10str socket bonus are kinda out of place in a "BiS list".
I assume those rankings were made under patchwerk conditions? Aside from this, how much can we them? The gearchoice seems lacking, Dragon Bone Warhelm and Crushing Weight as well as str/crit gems for a 10str socket bonus are kinda out of place in a "BiS list".
Of course. All of our spreadsheets are made 'under patchwerk conditions.' As wise players, we then take that 'ideal data and adjust it for encounter specific limitations.
The reason I linked it was two-fold. First, simc is in much better shape than it has been which is exciting because we now have another tool to check against and possible gain more data and a new perspective. Second, like rawr and other multi-class tools, it needs advice from more knowledgeable sources for the best gear, etc. Even with choices different than what we would make in this thread, it puts us towards the top in dps and demonstrates the ~2:1 ratio of mastery:crit that was discussed.
Let us make good suggestions to them for improving the ret paladin model and add it to our toolbox for better understanding and utilizing our class.
Just felt like I'd add to the discussion about our threat.
Pre-patch, there were many times where my threat would be close to 110%, but it would never push over that point. This typically would only occur in the beginning of the fight, after popping cds. Post patch, threat seems to be very sketchy, as I was needing at least 2 salv's in order to not pass the tanks. Again, it only happens in the beginning of the fight, and its not even like I am popping wings in the first 10 seconds. Tanks are getting full rounds of ToTT and MD's, but Ret threat just seems obnoxiously high right now. The only thing I feel like we can do is delay cd's a little longer, otherwise we are throttling dps, however doing so can end up meaning you dont get that extra round of cd's at the end of the fight.
I am having similar problems when our DK is tanking a boss (in my experience our warrior tanks pull significantly more threat than our DK tank. This could be attributed to a number of things: gearing, class, etc. but i'm not going into that). The one thing I want to discuss here is CD usage. Unless there are specific burn/bad DPS/phase transitions periods (e.g. Magmaw, Chimaeron, Atramedes, etc.) you should be popping CDs on cooldown to maximize the number of CDs you can fit into a fight. Let's take a look at the initial phases of a fight where threat may definitely be an issue.
Assumptions: 4.5 sec between ever CS (for simplicity's sake), no DP procs (for a conservative estimate), you start DPSing with a CS at 0 sec into the fight, no T11 4pc, We only need to salv ourself in the first case to solve threat problems resulting in a maximum of 1 wasted GCD (meaning no other dps-throttling methods need to be used).
0 sec: start with CS
9 sec: Third CS
10.5 sec: Inquisition
12 sec: 1st CS
21 sec: 3rd CS
22.5 sec: Pop CDs w/ TV or HoW (12 sec into Inquisition, leaving 18 sec left)
40.5 sec: 2 sec left on CDs, 0 sec left on inquisition.
Note that we may have to use a salv on ourselves during our CD period, resulting in a wasted GCD, and non-optimal DPS. Additionally, we have 2 sec of CD usage w/o inquisition up.
Now let's do the same thing but delay an extra cycle:
0 sec: start with CS
9 sec: Third CS
10.5 sec: Inquisition
13.5 sec: 1st CS
22.5 sec: 3rd CS
24 sec: TV
25.5 sec: 1st CS
34.5 sec: 3rd CS
36 sec: Pop CDs?? (4.5 sec left on Inquisition), better not use CDs here unless we refresh inquisition immedietly, which is a DPS loss. Therefore, we should use Inquisition without CDs.
37.5 sec: 1st CS
46.5 sec: 3rd CS
48 sec: Pop CDs w/ TV or HoW (12 sec into inquisition, leaving 18 sec left).
66 sec: 2 sec left on CDs, 0 sec left on inquisition.
We run into the same problem with 2 seconds left on inquisition, but we (most likely) will not have to salv ourself, resulting in as optimal DPS as we can get in this scenario. However, we delay CD usage from 22.5 sec to 48 sec. This is a delay of 25.5 seconds! That's a loss of 25.5 / 120 = 21.25% of a CD. This is a huge loss of time, and if this happens multiple times over a fight, you can be guaranteed a loss of a whole CD.
Although I haven't thrown any numbers on DPS gain/loss with a wasted GCD or whatnot, it seems apparent that:
a) Delaying CD usage initially has a high (21.25%) chance of resulting in lost CD usage, which is a lot more detrimental than using a salv during the first CD period.
b) In order to maximize DPS during CDs, 4pc T11 seems required (and 3 HP usage at least prior to CD usage) so that we can maintain inquisition throughout our CD period.
Although this is a specific case, and the situation may not be completely accurate to your own, I hope this analysis at least provides some insight into CD usage and delaying a CD due to threat.
It is presumed that they do not restart your auto attack or interrupt the swing time, just like Saronite Bombs didn't.
Were my thoughts, however, they do both.
08:52:31> Your Melee hit Raider's Training Dummy 4011 Physical.
08:52:35> Your Melee hit Raider's Training Dummy 4116 Physical.
08:52:38> Your Melee hit Raider's Training Dummy 4108 Physical.
08:52:43> Your Big Daddy hit Raider's Training Dummy 5239 Fire.
08:52:46> Your Melee hit Raider's Training Dummy 3889 Physical.
08:52:49> Your Melee hit Raider's Training Dummy 4527 Physical.
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but DMC:H is no longer proc'ing 100% on HoW. Not sure if overall proc chance is lower, but it went from average 4.4% of my dmg in 4.0.3 to 1.5% across all of last night as of 4.0.6.
My guildie mentioned somethin intresting in regards to this. Seems the procs have been criting for 200% instead of 150%, I think this may be what's lowered it further than what might been expected.
Can anyone in the U.S. confirm that CS and TV coefficients were not updated?
I swear my TV is hitting for less than it did before the patch. Pre-patch, I'd regularly see ~30-33k TV crits while doing dailies. Now, I'm seeing crits in the 24-26k range.
5900 weapon damage x 2.35 = 13.8k
5900 x 2.7 = ~16k
Also possible that glyph of templar's verdict just isn't working? Or is the Hand of Light holy damage being subtracted from the physical damage?
To answer some of the stuff about simulationcraft, yes the stuff we publish on the site is patchwerk stuff, but if you want to simulate other fights you can set up "raid events" for things like forced movement, spells that need interrupting, raid wide stuns or silences etc.
The profile was made hastily to get a release out the door and it could certainly be improved. In general most of us are more interested in the modeling than BiS lists, so any help there is greatly appreciated. I'll steal some stuff from the profile Danzou posted.
I swear my TV is hitting for less than it did before the patch. Pre-patch, I'd regularly see ~30-33k TV crits while doing dailies. Now, I'm seeing crits in the 24-26k range.
In frostmane realm (EU) my TVs are hitting ok , ~50k crit doing the random heroic , and ~70k crit in 10man raid !
.
It is presumed that they do not restart your auto attack or interrupt the swing time, just like Saronite Bombs didn't.
Saronite Bombs didn't reset swing timer because it had NO cast time. If you don't care about that, Big Daddy Bombs aren't even as good as the bolt gun, which also has a 0.5 second cast time.
One thing I haven't seen discussed recently is the 4 pc bonus. I just got mine 2 nights ago and though I didn't have it pre 4.06, I would venture to guess that it is valued much higher now than before. I'm not saying it wasn't good before, but it is fantastic now. I use a CS -> 2 filler rotation and find that often it is much more beneficial to pop Inq on one HoPo as one of the fillers than to save up HoPo for a 30 or 40 sec Inq. Even basic math will tell you that you get a bigger bonus using it at 1 HoPo as opposed to 2 or 3. I'm finding that my TV dmg contribution is much higher because of the ability to spend HoPo more on it than Inq.
One thing I haven't seen discussed recently is the 4 pc bonus. I just got mine 2 nights ago and though I didn't have it pre 4.06, I would venture to guess that it is valued much higher now than before. I'm not saying it wasn't good before, but it is fantastic now. I use a CS -> 2 filler rotation and find that often it is much more beneficial to pop Inq on one HoPo as one of the fillers than to save up HoPo for a 30 or 40 sec Inq. Even basic math will tell you that you get a bigger bonus using it at 1 HoPo as opposed to 2 or 3. I'm finding that my TV dmg contribution is much higher because of the ability to spend HoPo more on it than Inq.
With 4 pc bonus the less HP you use to refresh Inq the better. With 4.0.6 we have more predictable HP generation which = more efficient use of the 4 pc bonus = more dps. Makes perfect sense.
{EDIT the first macro below is WRONG, do not use it, I have not removed it so you can learn from my mistake}
Since the opening post suggests Avenging Wrath and Zealotry are now best used together, the macros listed in the OP can be updated with a consolidated one:
This interrupts Exorcism if you try to cast it normally, but it won't interrupt Exorcism if it is cast after an Art of War proc, because it has no casting time then. This means, if you hit Exo by accident you do interrupt your swing timer, but you do not lose even more DPS from waiting for the casting time.
The clever part is that marco's normally cannot check game states or use conditionals based on procs. This macro gets around that. If you do want to cast a normal Exorcism, hold down Alt.
02/09/11, 3:32 PM
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