The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 45

Exemplar · 02/08/11, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Paul

Are we still of the opinion that Glyph of Exorcism > Glyph of Crusader Strike?

Even more so. The Glyph was fixed. Rather than 20% of base damage (no coefficients), it's now 20% of the Exo which hit. This is a significant gain for Exo, enough that in my gear it steps ahead of HoW.

OP updated for new patch. Please PM any typos or if you find something broken.

Correspondingly I've released a 4.0.6 version of my spreadsheet, the link was updated for this.

Kawke, my spreadsheet more or less matches that priority (again, Exo pulled ahead due to glyph). It should be AW+Zeal+TV engage. CS, TV, Filler (HoW, Exo, or a HoL free TV very often). Even under Zeal you use 2 fillers. Please reference the newly updated OP on this topic.

aylen86 · 02/08/11, 3:53 PM

I stumbeled across this thread on MMO-C: [BUG] Crusader Strike and Templar Verdict Damage

Can anyone in the U.S. confirm that CS and TV coefficients were not updated?

slipey · 02/08/11, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kawke

I tried using this priority rotation and found that when I popped my cooldowns (AV+Zealotry) I was barely using hammer of wrath and my art of war proc just sat there doing nothing. Bringing Exo so far down in the priority list seems to not really be ideal espicially in a situation when you are blowing your cd's. I find using Exo as soon as it comes up or delaying it maybe 2 seconds is best because it can always proc back to back and that is just a waste.

Good observations. Using following rotation in the spreadsheet yields a 10 dps increase over the previous:

CS
Inq
HoW
Exo
TV
Judge
HW
Cons

It does also feel less wasteful. Right now it seems pretty close, but trading HoW and Exo for more TVs may end up better at higher gear levels as HoW and Exo do not scale with mastery.

I think the main thing to note is that it still appears to be a dps increase to delay the use of any procs and even Inq in favor of CS when you are below 3 HP.

Exemplar · 02/08/11, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by aylen86

Can anyone in the U.S. confirm that CS and TV coefficients were not updated?

If anyone does, can they confirm based off of tooltips and comparing to autoattack damage? Someone saying "ZOMG my damage isn't <a number pulled out of the air>" does not inspire any confidence. Someone coming behind and saying "I'm getting X% of melee strike, not Y%" would be far more cogent.

Remember, [Large Club] remains your friend for testing.

Edit:
Oh, and remember, TV is not to have changed. CS was buffed, TV was not. The first reports of TV buff were folks ignorant of the fact that talents and glyphs updated their tooltips and always had, they'd just never looked at the tooltip on live.

ApocalypseAP · 02/08/11, 4:56 PM

At 5009-6109 damage range, I'm hitting for about 6400-7150 Crusader Strike hits (without mastery factored in). Mastery is working properly and scales with Inquisition. 6400-7150 doesn't seem like it is hitting hard enough considering that the tooltip states 182% weapon damage... unless the normalization lowers it?

Pawpurr · 02/08/11, 5:00 PM

CS is physical so it is reduced by armor, that may be why the number seems lower.

Theck · 02/08/11, 5:09 PM

I haven't seen this mentioned yet in the Ret thread, but the bugged implementation of CS went through to live servers. CS no longer grants holy power on a miss, dodge, or parry result. While this is probably not significant for Ret as far as Patchwerk DPS is concerned, it may have some impact on your play in PvP or on situations where you're forced to attack from the front.

There is a bug report post here, but no official confirmation as to whether this is a bug or a stealth nerf.

ApocalypseAP · 02/08/11, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Pawpurr

CS is physical so it is reduced by armor, that may be why the number seems lower.

That makes sense, actually. That could be what people are experiencing.

Also... if it's not a bug that Crusader Strike doesn't generate a Holy Power on miss/dodge/parry, they should at least have it not go on cooldown anyway so you could try to use it again.

the KRIS · 02/08/11, 5:29 PM

It's confirmed to not be a bug by a blue post later in the thread. It's logical that a miss/dodge/parry would not generate HP, and this largely going to be a hit to prot rather than ret.

Gavenrod · 02/08/11, 5:39 PM

It appears that our Mastery is giving us more added damage than our tooltip is advertising.

I've been testing different abilities and comparing their critical strike and normal value hits to the damage that Hand of Light retroactively applies to said target.

The in game tooltip reads: (With no additive mastery stats.)
Your Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm deal 16% additional damage as Holy damage. Each point of Mastery increases the damage by an additional 2.1%.

Yet on Wowhead.com the tooltip reads: (Again no additive stats.)
Your Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm deal 16.8% additional damage as Holy damage. Each point of Mastery increases the damage by an additional 2.1%.

~~~ \/ ~~~

I'm currently sitting at 1093 mastery rating. (+6.10 totalling to 14.10) Tooltip shows 29% increased damage.

Without using SoT, Inq, or any self buffs, testing on a Raider's Training Dummy, (??88 boss):

Templar's Verdict:
Crit: 34706
HoL: 10274

Noncrit: 16995
HoL: 5031

Now I know this is a limited test, but I've seen this occur with CS and TV consistently.

34706 *.29 = 10064.74 = 209.26 difference in damage.

16995 *.29 = 4928.55 = 102.45 difference in damage.

I'm not a math wiz, but if these numbers are consistent, what is the hidden integer, and how would I go about determining it?

-------------------

Using the 16.8% to modify what I'm calculating with my currently mastery:

6.10*2.1= 12.81 + 16.8 = 29.61 increase to damage.

TV Crit: 34706*.2961 = 10276.4466
TV Noncrit: 5032.2195

After playing around with numbers, it looks like 29.605 is a closer and more accurate modifier, but I'd like to see further testing to confirm.

Pdawg · 02/08/11, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gavenrod

I'm currently sitting at 1093 mastery rating. (+6.10 totalling to 14.10) Tooltip shows 29% increased damage.

Without using SoT, Inq, or any self buffs, testing on a Raider's Training Dummy, (??88 boss):

Templar's Verdict:
Crit: 34706
HoL: 10274

This looks normal. 14.1 * 2.1% * 34706 = 10276.

Millhousen · 02/08/11, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gavenrod

It appears that our Mastery is giving us more added damage than our tooltip is advertising.

I've been testing different abilities and comparing their critical strike and normal value hits to the damage that Hand of Light retroactively applies to said target.

The in game tooltip reads: (With no additive mastery stats.)
Your Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm deal 16% additional damage as Holy damage. Each point of Mastery increases the damage by an additional 2.1%.

Yet on Wowhead.com the tooltip reads: (Again no additive stats.)
Your Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm deal 16.8% additional damage as Holy damage. Each point of Mastery increases the damage by an additional 2.1%.

~~~ \/ ~~~

I'm currently sitting at 1093 mastery rating. (+6.10 totalling to 14.10) Tooltip shows 29% increased damage.

Without using SoT, Inq, or any self buffs, testing on a Raider's Training Dummy, (??88 boss):

Templar's Verdict:
Crit: 34706
HoL: 10274

Noncrit: 16995
HoL: 5031

Now I know this is a limited test, but I've seen this occur with CS and TV consistently.

34706 *.29 = 10064.74 = 209.26 difference in damage.

16995 *.29 = 4928.55 = 102.45 difference in damage.

I'm not a math wiz, but if these numbers are consistent, what is the hidden integer, and how would I go about determining it?

-------------------

Using the 16.8% to modify what I'm calculating with my currently mastery:

6.10*2.1= 12.81 + 16.8 = 29.61 increase to damage.

TV Crit: 34706*.2961 = 10276.4466
TV Noncrit: 5032.2195

After playing around with numbers, it looks like 29.605 is a closer and more accurate modifier, but I'd like to see further testing to confirm.

Unless I'm missing something here, this is perfectly normal behavior? It has been well documented that Mastery tooltips round to a whole percent to display.

14.10(your current mastery) * 2.1% = 29.61%

Your HoL number is within 0.02% of that, well within rounding range.

If you dig into the numbers a bit deeper you'll find your mastery is actually slightly below 14.10. It's actually 14.0966 which will of course pull you below that 29.61% expected and closer to the 29.605% you observed.

EDIT: Wish I could delete this, I should not have responded.

ApocalypseAP · 02/08/11, 6:33 PM

95 Crusader Strikes and 130 melee swings. This is all unbuffed vs a Raider's Training Dummy, 3.6 weapon speed.

Crusader Strike: Minimum 5980, Maximum 7621.
Melee Swings: Minimum 3443, Maximum 4320.

Someone better than me at math figure it out.

matthewseidl · 02/08/11, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by ApocalypseAP

95 Crusader Strikes and 130 melee swings. This is all unbuffed vs a Raider's Training Dummy, 3.6 weapon speed.

Crusader Strike: Minimum 5980, Maximum 7621.
Melee Swings: Minimum 3443, Maximum 4320.

Someone better than me at math figure it out.

That looks about right to me.

7621 / 4320 - 1.764. So CS is hitting for 176% of the melee swing.

It should hit for 135% * 1.3 (Crusade) = 175%. Close enough for a small sample size.

Bonebreaker · 02/08/11, 7:24 PM

A question about weapons :

everyone here mentionned Ashkandi as a BiS weapon, but couldn't Akirus be better for a dwarf ? Akirus is indeed faster, but dwarf's racial provide an extra +3 exp, not to mention mastery instead of crit. Not sure it's better though, but it should be considered.