The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 59

Handled · 03/25/11, 3:24 PM

While being on the subject of gear and your bets offset pieces. There are a few assumptions you can make and they are mainly based on Weapons. If you are using a Mace/Axe you will want to aim for an offset Helm due to the absurd amount of Expertise. If you are using a PvP weapon or Ashkandi then you want to shoot for the offset Shoulders as you will need the Expertise.

Yet why would one reforge Hit->Mastery over Haste->Mastery for any reason? There are sure to be other pieces of gear with Hit and a more valuable stat than Haste from which Hit can be reforged out of. If instead Haste is reforged to Mastery, the T11 values at 103.91. Then there are the 372 comparisons. I'll include the same reforging here.

I understand where you are coming but Haste isn't so far behind that you would never consider reforging from it. Sure it is lower then Crit but sometimes if you are looking for precision 8% Hit even and not going over it you have to reforge a higher valued secondary stat to have less wasted stats from being over a cap.

The best suggestion I can make is using wowreforge to do the reforging it will be a precise method for not wasting secondary stat points.

mineis · 03/26/11, 3:32 PM

Sorry I may miss a post on this, but I remember reading that our mastery isn't affected by the 8% magic debuff, however, I am seeing higher Hand of Light damage than possible even with 100% uptime on inquisition. Can someone else confirm this?

On a target dummy, with 17.98 total mastery (37.758).
With the debuff, 3 CS strikes dealt 26009 damage and 10606 HoL ( or 40.77% of CS )
Without the debuff, 3 CS strikes dealt 23994 and 9060 HoL ( 37.75% )
My gear doesn't have any on +mastery proc.

Thanks.

Redcape · 03/27/11, 11:18 AM

I just went and tested HoL with 8% spelldamage and it certainly works. HoL does not double dip with other types of raid buffs and didn't benefit from 8% spelldamage on the PTR when we built our models but it sure does benefit from 8% spelldamage now. Whether or not this is a bug or intended is entirely unclear but obviously there isn't anything we can do about it either way.

As far as I know our models all model mastery as only being affected by Inquisition so this will likely change our weights slightly in favour of mastery even more so than before. This changes our damage as modelled by roughly .9-1% in current gear. The new stat weights from my sheet should be roughly:

Weapon Speed 188,480
Weapon DPS 900

Strength 233
Hit 177
Exp 130
Crit 98
Haste 79
Mastery 113

This will change our reforging priorities a little since mastery and crit have pulled apart somewhat but it isn't a tremendous change.

Exemplar · 03/27/11, 11:59 AM

For Reference - my last spreadsheet release (2-14) included 8% spelldamage bonus (if present) into Mastery, so any numbers anyone has derived from that source should be unchanged. At this point I don't recall if this was an oversight on my part or based on testing data I'd received/done myself.

Regarding BiS offset piece or PvP gloves - I highly recommend using the tools available. Both spreadsheets - Redcape's and mine - correctly value the CS bonus of the PvP gloves. Test gear one way, test it the other, find which provides more DPS directly without trying to convert 5% CS damage to some value of Str or secondary Stat.

Caromina · 03/27/11, 6:25 PM

I've tested this for myself and it looks like it's only increased by this 8% spelldamage. All other multiplier are not affected.

I do have an other question concerning GoaK modeling for Rawr.

What's the attackspeed of Goak?, Which hittable is it using? Is it affected by any buffs?

Tobrexa · 03/28/11, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by Caromina

I've tested this for myself and it looks like it's only increased by this 8% spelldamage. All other multiplier are not affected.

It is the only (de)buff that could affect HoL directly, as the latter is magical in nature but only depends on the base value of the corresponding hit.

All other buffs which directly affect base damage of the underlying hit should also increase HoL damage (most notably the 4%-physical-damage-taken-debuff), but the fraction of the HoL damage in relation to the base-hit would stay the same.

One exception could be an overall modifier (like +3%damage-buff) possibly forcing HoL to doubledip in those (by increasing basedamage of the corresponding style-hit and HoL itself). As stated above, that seems not to be the case, but I recommend retesting that, as we assumed wrongly about the spell-damage-debuff.

aadric · 03/28/11, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Caromina

What's the attackspeed of Goak?, Which hittable is it using? Is it affected by any buffs?

From my limited testing (a few hundred swings), its a 2.0 swing speed. It uses its own hit table which seems unaffected by our hit/expertise (it definitely misses a lot when we are capped). It isn't affected by any of our buffs but I have not tested any mob debuffs or buffs that he might get if they were cast or aura based (heroism, crit aura). Heroism should be pretty easy to test.

Caromina · 03/29/11, 4:17 AM

Originally Posted by aadric

From my limited testing (a few hundred swings), its a 2.0 swing speed. It uses its own hit table which seems unaffected by our hit/expertise (it definitely misses a lot when we are capped). It isn't affected by any of our buffs but I have not tested any mob debuffs or buffs that he might get if they were cast or aura based (heroism, crit aura). Heroism should be pretty easy to test.

I've did some tests myself yesterday and here what i turn out with:
- 2.0 swing timer looks about right
- Melee White hit table (includes hit, crit, glancing, miss, dodge)
- I did not see any parry, but this is probably because i only cast Goak when i was behind the dummys
- Equip did not change anything, (Weapondamage or misses / dodges)
- Hit damage ranges from 3800 - 4950 (approx)

- Did no testing on buffs / debuffs.

Exemplar · 03/29/11, 12:08 PM

Browsed last week's logs.

Hero then GoAK - 2.0 attack speed.
GoAK then Hero - 2.0 attack speed.

GoAK does not appear to benefit from any external buffs. I will tentatively state that GoAK does gain benefit from debuffs, as GoAK vs. Halfus and vs. Exposed Head of Magmaw were the expected multiple of normal damage.

It appears to be modified by armour as individual strikes had a better low- and top-end damage on trash than on bosses. As such I would suspect that armour reducing debuffs would impact GoAK's damage.

I confirm the dodge, miss, and even block, however I cannot find a clean fashion to find GoAK glances on WoL. Based on damage values I see no evidence to disprove and thus no reason to disbelieve or disagree with the above posters on this point.

Damage seems to scale (slowly) based on something. Testing would need to be done with different values of Spellpower, AP, and weapondamage to see which impact and at roughly what rate. Edit for Clarification: one of our Ret is main-spec tank, so his Ret gear is behind the curve - his Guardian had just enough variance compared to the others to be clearly consistently lower.

Some rough numbers:
Average hit (including glancing) of all our Ret's GoAK during a night was about 4450.
Say an average of 1 attack out of the 15 will miss or be dodged.
This gives us roughly 62300 damage for a usage.
1 usage per 5 minutes = 62300 damage / 300 sec = 207.66 DPS just from its weak melee.
The lion share of its bonus will remain the % Str gain, which is clearly stacking far more rapidly from our attacks (auto and otherwise) than his paltry 15.

It should also be possible to rough out an averaged Str bonus based on speed of stacking and overall duration.

captoats · 03/29/11, 12:24 PM

Did 3 tests myself, 1) completely naked (0 hit, 0exp, 0bonus str), 2) with full gear(8.03hit, 26exp), and 3) with full gear + might + kings + 10stack of LtS proc + 3% aura dmg buff

-2.0 swing speed is average through my results, 30sec uptime with each test resulting in 15swings. Could be closer to 1.9 or so, as it takes just a second before it's first attack upon being summoned.
-Test 1) 10hits, 0crit, 2glancing, 2dodge, 0parry, 1miss; Max hit of 5.0k, Min of 2.9k, Avg of 3.4k
-Test 2) 11hits, 0crit, 2glancing, 2dodge, 0parry, 0miss; Max hit of 4.8k, Min of 2.8k, Avg of 3.6k
-Test 3) 7hits, 1crit, 3glancing, 1dodge, 0parry, 3miss; Max hit of 8.6k, Min of3.3k, Avg of 3.2k (I assume skada took the misses into account with a value of 0, putting the average below the min, otherwise I'm dumbfounded by that)

Obviously, the pet does not scale with our hit/exp tables seeing as it misses/dodges when we are fully hit/exp capped, so it must have some table values of its own. GoAK attacked from behind the boss the whole time, which explains the 0parries throughout. The damage is very random, so I will need to run some more tests once I have time, but it seems that it does not scale with our stats, or if it does it does so in a very limited manner.

One possible reason for the pet's missing attacks would be that it uses our spell hit table instead of the melee hit table and is being unaffected by Sheath of Light putting it under hit cap, but that would not explain the seemingly uncapped expertise.

Edit: Ninja'd by exemplar while I was writing this up : \

Just to clarify, my results were on the Raider's Training Dummy, not bosses and had no debuffs whatsoever minus Censure for the last two tests and a DK put on his diseases for the last 3-4seconds of the 3rd test.

Looking back at my personal logs from last week, these were just 2 encounters, no damage buffs like on halfus or magmaw.
1) 9hits, 1 crit, 5glancing, 0dodge, 0parry, 0miss; 67,465dmg total, 4404.3average hit, 3615.8average glancing
2) (Two summons were used this attempt) 17hits, 0crit, 9glancing, 2dodge, 0parry, 3miss; 109,531dmg total, 4680.6average hit, 3329.0average glancing

The average hit is much higher in a raid setting, although I'm not sure what kind of player-applied debuffs would be present on the boss to increase the damage, so our pet MAY in fact slightly scale with our buffs, however this is still very unlikely when looking at the previous tests on the training dummy.

aadric · 03/29/11, 1:03 PM

Note that GoAK can also crit boss mobs even when you cannot. Looking at the SimulationCraft model, they appear to use the default pet hit table (standard miss/dodge for an 85 character and default 5% crit). They also use a damage range of 5500-7000 (before armor), which is roughly in line with my tests. That said it would take about 7000 hits to statistically prove that (45 hours of testing).

Caromina · 03/30/11, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by aadric

Note that GoAK can also crit boss mobs even when you cannot. Looking at the SimulationCraft model, they appear to use the default pet hit table (standard miss/dodge for an 85 character and default 5% crit). They also use a damage range of 5500-7000 (before armor), which is roughly in line with my tests. That said it would take about 7000 hits to statistically prove that (45 hours of testing).

If the crit chance is the default 5% - crit suppression (- 4,8%) => .2 % => 1 out of 500 would be a crit.
Well i searched through some logs and it doesn't seem to be that low.

But I'll implement something like that, and change it if we found out more.

Sinfinity · 04/01/11, 1:51 AM

I was curious as to why SimCraft makes DMC:H worth 800 more DPS than LtS when i sim both in optimal reforge etc. With my current gear it says with DMC equipped i do 24000 on the sim, and LtS i do 23200. Even (before i got 4pc) when i equipped LtS+HoR i noticed a severe dps decrease over DMC+HoR. Wonderin why every top ret paladin uses HoR+LtS.

solacespecs · 04/01/11, 9:28 AM

Originally Posted by Sinfinity

I was curious as to why SimCraft makes DMC:H worth 800 more DPS than LtS when i sim both in optimal reforge etc. With my current gear it says with DMC equipped i do 24000 on the sim, and LtS i do 23200. Even (before i got 4pc) when i equipped LtS+HoR i noticed a severe dps decrease over DMC+HoR. Wonderin why every top ret paladin uses HoR+LtS.

SimulationCraft incorrectly weighs the value of DMC:H.

Sinfinity · 04/01/11, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by solacespecs

SimulationCraft incorrectly weighs the value of DMC:H.

I understand that, but i was wondering if there would be any certain variable that would make DMC more dps. Like i said, for whatever reason i seem to do more with that equipped over LtS. I just got 4pc this week and haven't had a chance to use LtS with it, but if its the hit rating, i can get hit capped without it.