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04/06/11, 9:25 AM
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#901
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Tobrexa
On WoWhead, the card has a damage range , while ingame and in the Armory it is said to be having a flat damage on my toon.
Bizarrely, ingame the card reads 52xx and on my armory page a round 5k.
Is that the difference from BoM?
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Even with the Interface Option set to not display averages, the card always shows the average.
Difference is Communion - the 3% raidwide and additional 2% personal. Armoury does not tend to track buffs, including your aura. Since it treats you as having no aura, it does not grant the 3% bonus.
BoM has nothing to do with it.
Originally Posted by Hycisa
I have 1958 mastery x .021 = 41.118% damage increase. My Mastery readout on my character sheet is showing 39%. That would be 1958 x .02
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Mastery % is not ((Mastery rating / 100) * 2.1). Mastery % = 16.8% base + ((Mastery Rating / 179.28 ) * 2.1)
1958 rating / 179.28 = 10.92 Mastery.
10.92 Mastery * 2.1 = 22.935%
16.8% + 22.935% = 39.735%
Blizzard Truncates on Paperdoll = 39%
Actual in-game benefit provided = 39.735...%
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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04/07/11, 7:20 PM
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#902
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Paladin
Frostwolf
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from mmo-champ:
Retribution
* Selfless Healer: The damage bonus from this talent now has a 30 sec duration instead of 10 sec.
My numbers, based on my toon (Mle @ Frostwolf) using Patchwerk SimulationCraft:
DPS:
23,000
Damage over 30s:
690,000
Avg crit TV (cos I'm too lazy to avg hit & crit):
45,000
Damage over 30s without that TV (to activate Selfless Healer):
645,000
Damage over 30s @ 112%:
722,250
Increase in Damage:
5%
This was kinda a worst case scenario as I'm taking the avg crit TV damage out, rather than the overall average. I would assume that if you lined it up with CDs you could get a lot more (it could cover AW/Zeal and/or Heroism).
My napkin maths says that this is now be a dps increase, at least when combined with CDs. Does someone who has more modeling skill have any thoughts?
Edit: I am assuming that I would lose 1pt in Eye for an Eye and 1pt in Arts of Sacrifice to get the necessary 2 talent points. Eye for an Eye is at most 1% of my dmg depending on the fight and so SH still comes out ahead for me...
Last edited by Thunderchylde : 04/07/11 at 7:30 PM.
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04/07/11, 7:26 PM
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#903
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Von Kaiser
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In reference to removing 4-piece for a single piece of heroic gear, its almost surely not worth it. In my sim it would take a few pieces going from 359 -> 372. You can check it for yourself in one of the spreadsheets pretty easily.
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04/07/11, 8:14 PM
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#904
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Von Kaiser
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Thunderchylde the problem with that math is you're giving the 12% bonus to Hand of Light (mastery), effectively double dipping.
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04/07/11, 9:22 PM
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#905
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Paladin
Antonidas
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Might wanna redo math for Selfless healer with Eternal Glory in mind, 30% Chance to get the damage buff for free, Expense of -10% exorcism damage.
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04/08/11, 6:29 AM
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#906
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Glass Joe
Human Mage
Ravencrest (EU)
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Or just keep the 10% damage in exchange for 15% less free WoG's.
Originally Posted by aadric
Thunderchylde the problem with that math is you're giving the 12% bonus to Hand of Light (mastery), effectively double dipping.
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Why is that a problem, it does apply to Hand of Light, right?
Last edited by Pent : 04/08/11 at 6:35 AM.
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04/08/11, 7:29 AM
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#907
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Turalyon
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There's a lot going on here with Selfless Healer, and since I've never run into it before, I'm not completely sure I've got it covered with my modeling.
4pT11- Does EG proc on WoG used at 2 HoPo? It may have been tested, but I've probably missed it if it has. What's the refund policy if it does? And, of course, does the 12% damage buff all around to be maintained at the cost of the 2 HoPo, and at 3 HoPo, warrant the upkeep?
There is a DP/EG interaction bug where it bypasses EG's ICD, and that probably isn't getting fixed with the next patch, but then again, we can't be certain of that either. The CD on WoG should make this a non-issue, but it could potentially crop up in other ways too, just to keep it in the back of your mind if you run into something acting strangely(-er?).
I'm absolutely bombed in schoolwork, and don't have the time to answer this myself. If anyone's seen it or run it themselves, it'd help me sleep better. At worst, it's a macro to cast on your focus, and another poweraura to set up, so I don't see it being a huge issue on the PvE side, but how the numbers shake out is interesting, and from what I'm getting, it's an increase with both 4p and without, but I'm not exactly positive I'm working off of good data with the interactions.
Last edited by Medieve : 04/08/11 at 7:31 AM.
Reason: Started numbering things, then quit after 1. Quit while I was ahead.
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04/08/11, 7:58 AM
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#908
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Piston Honda
Tauren Paladin
Mal'Ganis (EU)
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Originally Posted by Medieve
There's a lot going on here with Selfless Healer, and since I've never run into it before, I'm not completely sure I've got it covered with my modeling.
4pT11- Does EG proc on WoG used at 2 HoPo? It may have been tested, but I've probably missed it if it has. What's the refund policy if it does?
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It does proc. HoPo just stays the same, so if you have 2 HoPo and EG procs, you still have 2 HoPo
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04/08/11, 8:25 AM
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#909
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Turalyon
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Originally Posted by Tharia
It does proc. HoPo just stays the same, so if you have 2 HoPo and EG procs, you still have 2 HoPo
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Thanks a lot. I'm close then, unless I made a huge mistake somewhere, but as we're looking at it now, it's a gain. I don't want to get too nuts into it, even if I had the time, since it's still only PTR and doesn't quite belong here, but if it makes it live in it's current form, it should make things interesting.
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04/08/11, 8:54 AM
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#910
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Mage
Chamber of Aspects (EU)
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Originally Posted by Tharia
It does proc. HoPo just stays the same, so if you have 2 HoPo and EG procs, you still have 2 HoPo
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The behaviour I have witnessed as prot regarding EG procs is that it will spend the HoPo then there is a fraction of time before the HoPo is refunded. It doesn't change much but may be something to consider if your rotation would be (EG)Wog - TV - filler.
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04/08/11, 9:00 AM
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#911
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Blackmoore (EU)
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In my opinion u should use the selfless healer right before using your cooldowns.
Lets say you're doing ~700k-800k dmg using your cooldown in a raid-boss fight. 6% of that would be 42k-48k dmg.
The Question is now if your Ø TV Dmg (you would use instead of using the 3 HP for WoG) is higher than those 42k.
My recommended rotation for that would be:
WoG @ 3HP -> CS, Filler, CS, Filler, CS -> Zealotry -> Avenging Wrath -> TV -> CS -> TV -> HoW -> CS and so on.
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04/08/11, 9:36 AM
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#912
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Xelothar
The Question is now if your Ø TV Dmg (you would use instead of using the 3 HP for WoG) is higher than
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That has always been the question. But now with a triple duration, it's likely that it is a significant increase, as it was fairly close before. Also, this wouldn't be a just for CDs buff, it would essentially be another Inq to keep up. It may also have other ramifications such as lowering Exo damage by not specing for it, thus lowering the exo priority, which could warrant a glyph swap to CS depending on the numbers. We would also need to factor in the loss of E4E against the dps gain as well, as that is the most likely place in my mind to pull points for selfless healer.
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04/08/11, 9:38 AM
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#913
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Xelothar
In my opinion u should use the selfless healer right before using your cooldowns.
Lets say you're doing ~700k-800k dmg using your cooldown in a raid-boss fight. 6% of that would be 42k-48k dmg.
The Question is now if your Ø TV Dmg (you would use instead of using the 3 HP for WoG) is higher than those 42k.
My recommended rotation for that would be:
WoG @ 3HP -> CS, Filler, CS, Filler, CS -> Zealotry -> Avenging Wrath -> TV -> CS -> TV -> HoW -> CS and so on.
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You're going to need to consider using an Inquisition in there, plus the length of time it will take to rebuild to 3 holy power twice. It may be Selfless Healer is only worth using if you have 3 HP and get a DP proc when Inquisition time remaining is below a certain threshold. If this goes live, 4pT11 would become even more valuable as it would provide more flexibility as to when SH could be used.
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04/08/11, 9:53 AM
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#914
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Glass Joe
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Assuming no 4pcT11 (because I don't have it, and because probably nobody will in the next raiding tier), I think the logical rotation would be to put up a 30s duration Inquisition ASAP, and then build three holy Power for WoG. After that, renew Inquisition and SH alternately via Holy Power, using the Divine Purpose procs with TVs (and this would be the only source of TV casts). This probably makes Sanctity of Battle almost completely pointless until you have enough haste for a 3s CS cooldown, at which point you could afford a cycle of Inq - WoG - TV... from Holy Power.
A quick back-of-the-envelope check suggests I'd get a 5-6% DPS increase from this without WG, and about +0.8% per point in EG.
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04/08/11, 10:15 AM
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#915
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King Hippo
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People are getting this new SH change all wrong. Figuring out how good it is is not a complicated thing to do. First, take the basic 359 geared toon in my spreadsheet:
Total TV damage including procs: 43,539
DPS: 22,176
Damage of SH used once: 22,176 dps * 30 sec * .12 = 79834 damage
So a SH that lasts the full duration is worth almost double a TV and it provides a pretty substantial heal to boot. If this is used precisely on cooldown the net benefit to dps is
((22,176 * 30 - 43,539) * 1.12 - 22,176 * 30 )/30 = 1036 dps.
1036 dps is obviously huge and is just a little under 5%. This figure does not tell the whole story though because it does not account for the fact that we won't have 100% uptime with no wasteage and also that chucking out a big heal every so often is beneficial. In practice we will need updated tools to maximize our effectiveness using this technique which can of course just be PowerAuras temporarily but ideally would be clcinfo once that gets updated. The damage buff in real play will definitely be less than 5% but it is abundantly clear that putting the points into SH will be mandatory, displacing Eye for an Eye or the other optional utility talents (Repent, Acts of Sacrifice, Guardian's favor).
As for EG we can model it as .15 extra TV casts per ~35 seconds which is 187 dps, or less than 1%. However, this ignores the additional GCD which might already be full. It would require real modelling to accurately determine the full effect of EG but it might be competitive with Blazing Light (10% Exo / point) which is 105 dps / point. It might also be competitive with Eye for an Eye which is also roughly ~100 dps per point but varies wildly.
Regardless we can certainly say that with SH being mandatory and EG being a reasonable candidate for dps talents we are now unable to take all our dps talents even skipping every single utility talent possible.
Edit: Ooops. I forgot to account for the fact that WoG is not on the DP ability list. This means that we skip a 15% chance to get a free TV every 30 seconds too. SH is still going to be mandatory but figuring out the exact benefit will require real modelling rather than simple calculations like above.
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