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05/24/11, 4:00 PM
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#1006
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Dunemaul
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More additions to the patch notes for AoE changes. [ Source]
- Seal of Righteousness – now can be proc’d by any melee ability, not just single target melee abilities. This adds Hammer of the Righteous (the physical component) and Divine Storm to the list of abilities that can proc it. In addition, Seal of Righteousness procs can now crit.
- Seals of Command: This talent now makes Seal of Righteousness hit an unlimited number of melee targets, instead of only 2 additional targets.
- Glyph of Seal of Truth: The expertise bonus granted by this glyph now also works when Seal of Righteousness is active.
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These changes will definitely narrow the target threshold between Righteousness and Truth.
edit: Added SoC change. My mistake, I had left it out because I thought it had been covered earlier in the thread.
Last edited by Alterra : 05/25/11 at 3:17 PM.
Reason: Added SoC change
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05/24/11, 5:49 PM
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#1007
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Ravencrest (EU)
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Originally Posted by Alterra
More additions to the patch notes for AoE changes. [ Source]
These changes will definitely narrow the target threshold between Righteousness and Truth.
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Am I misunderstanding something or won't those changes give ds with sor exponential damage growth?
I mean ds will proc sor and sor will proc soc cleave on infinite(everyone in range in other words) amount of enemies.
If we start at 4 enemies, a single Divine Storm will hit 4 targets. Those hits will proc 4 SoRs and those SoRs will each proc 3 cleaves.
Resulting in 4+4+3+3+3+3=20 "hits"
At 5 targets 5+5+4+4+4+4+4=30 we got an increase of 10
At 6 6+6+5+5+5+5+5+5=42 now the increase is 12
At 7 7+7+6+6+6+6+6+6+6=56 increase of 14
So we can see that the amount increases by the earlier increase +2 everytime another target is added.
At 10 targets the amount of is already a whopping 110.
If it really works like this then I highly doubt we will see it go to live like this. While the amount of targets would have to be pretty high to get extreme amount of hits, the exponential increase is always scary with the potential and I don't think they want something like that.
Last edited by Ichà go : 05/24/11 at 6:03 PM.
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05/24/11, 6:55 PM
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#1008
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Skullcrusher (EU)
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SoR will probably function like wrath SoC when it was the aoe seal.
When a single target strike hits, it procs the aoe dmg. When an aoe strike hits, it procs a single SoR on each of the mobs hit.
And btw, you seem to have missed this note:
•Seals of Command: This talent now makes Seal of Righteousness hit an unlimited number of melee targets, instead of only 2 additional targets.
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05/25/11, 1:11 AM
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#1009
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Korialstrasz
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Originally Posted by Ich� go
Am I misunderstanding something or won't those changes give ds with sor exponential damage growth?
I mean ds will proc sor and sor will proc soc cleave on infinite(everyone in range in other words) amount of enemies.
If we start at 4 enemies, a single Divine Storm will hit 4 targets. Those hits will proc 4 SoRs and those SoRs will each proc 3 cleaves.
Resulting in 4+4+3+3+3+3=20 "hits"
At 5 targets 5+5+4+4+4+4+4=30 we got an increase of 10
At 6 6+6+5+5+5+5+5+5=42 now the increase is 12
At 7 7+7+6+6+6+6+6+6+6=56 increase of 14
So we can see that the amount increases by the earlier increase +2 everytime another target is added.
At 10 targets the amount of is already a whopping 110.
If it really works like this then I highly doubt we will see it go to live like this. While the amount of targets would have to be pretty high to get extreme amount of hits, the exponential increase is always scary with the potential and I don't think they want something like that.
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I think you'd be slightly off, with your calculations.
Divine Storm hits 1 target, does Hand of Light damage, triggers SoR on said target, which then triggers SoC on that target (it does damage to the SoR target too, not just the cleave) - So, 1 Target = 4 Hits.
Now, let's jump to your 4 target calculation.
DS = 4 Hits
HoL = 4 Hits
SoR = 4 Hits
SoC = 16 Hits (Applies to each target that SoR hits, plus all those within cleave range of that target)
Total Hits = 28 Hits
5 Targets would be 35 Hits. 6 targets is 54 hits. 7 targets is 70 hits.
The SoC calculation, at this time, would be # of targets multiplied by themselves (provided they are all within cleaveable range). Your calculation you used did not apply SoC damage to the SoR target (which is how it always has worked).
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05/25/11, 1:17 PM
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#1010
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Trademark
SoR will probably function like wrath SoC when it was the aoe seal.
When a single target strike hits, it procs the aoe dmg. When an aoe strike hits, it procs a single SoR on each of the mobs hit.
And btw, you seem to have missed this note:
•Seals of Command: This talent now makes Seal of Righteousness hit an unlimited number of melee targets, instead of only 2 additional targets.
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Another speculation people are making is that SoR will only chain off your primary target. Meaning, that for each DS, you would have 2 sets of SoR damage-- The initial unlimited SoR chain off your primary target, and one SoR proc off each target that DS hits (that does not chain to other targets).
Until the PTR is updated, we can't verify this. The WoG change still isn't even applied to the servers, despite the SH talent's wording change.
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05/26/11, 2:40 AM
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#1011
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Arathor (EU)
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Just a quick question ,
SoC will get SoR to hit 2 additional targets ( or unlimited number of targets on next patch ) with holy damage .
Do we need to be exp cap in order not to miss the additional targets ? or is the chance to hit the additional targets has nothing to do with expertise , as it is a holy damage ?
On patch notes they added this point : Glyph of Seal of Truth: The expertise bonus granted by this glyph now also works when Seal of Righteousness is active.
Does this confirm that SoR depends on Expertise in order to hit all the additional targets ?
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05/26/11, 3:26 AM
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#1012
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Burning Legion (EU)
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Currently on PTR (last build with SoR working) :
1 DS on 4 targets proc :
DS = 4 hits,
HoL = 4 hits,
SoR = 4 hits,
SoC = 4 hits
09:21:15> Llyx's Divine Storm hits Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(4980 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Divine Storm hits Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(5031 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Divine Storm hits Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(4793 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Divine Storm hits Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(4391 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Seal of Righteousness hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(1209 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Seal of Righteousness hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(1210 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Seal of Righteousness hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(1209 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Seal of Righteousness hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(1210 Overkill)
09:21:16> Llyx's Hand of Light hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(2759 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Hand of Light hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(2787 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Hand of Light hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(2655 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Hand of Light hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(2432 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Seals of Command hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(696 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Seals of Command hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(629 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Seals of Command hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(661 Overkill)
09:21:15> Llyx's Seals of Command hits Training Dummy for 1 Holy.(657 Overkill)
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05/26/11, 7:53 AM
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#1013
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Glass Joe
Human Paladin
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
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From the above information it looks like they must have changed the mechanic of the SoC portion of SoR to avoid any exponential chaining.
Reading it literally I would have presumed that for each DS hit that landed there would be a SoR hit chained to each target within range and all accompanying goodness.
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05/26/11, 10:46 AM
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#1014
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Magtheridon
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Originally Posted by Cloudio
On patch notes they added this point : Glyph of Seal of Truth: The expertise bonus granted by this glyph now also works when Seal of Righteousness is active.
Does this confirm that SoR depends on Expertise in order to hit all the additional targets ?
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Hardly. They are clearly trying to make us actually want to use SoR in AOE situations. One of the gripes paladins have with other seals besides truth is that we rely on that glyph to hit the expertise cap, so suddenly not having that cap when in an AOE situation is pretty crappy. This change solves that problem.
These procs are triggered when the initial physical hit from DS lands. You will need hit and expertise to make sure that initial hit lands, but the rest of the procs should be triggered once that hit connects. They're not going to make us need to pass a hit check multiple times per target on a single attack. There is no precedent for that (that I'm aware of anyway), and it would be pretty poor design.
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05/26/11, 12:03 PM
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#1015
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Calefax
Hardly. They are clearly trying to make us actually want to use SoR in AOE situations. One of the gripes paladins have with other seals besides truth is that we rely on that glyph to hit the expertise cap, so suddenly not having that cap when in an AOE situation is pretty crappy. This change solves that problem.
These procs are triggered when the initial physical hit from DS lands. You will need hit and expertise to make sure that initial hit lands, but the rest of the procs should be triggered once that hit connects. They're not going to make us need to pass a hit check multiple times per target on a single attack. There is no precedent for that (that I'm aware of anyway), and it would be pretty poor design.
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Unless they have changed it, applying Censure and Seals of Command are on different attack tables-- For whatever reason, it can miss even if your initial hit lands. It could be possible that it can also be dodged parried also.
Edit: Reviewed some Chimaeron logs, and indeed Seals of Command can also be blocked.
Ironically, Eye for an Eye can also miss as well.
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05/26/11, 12:34 PM
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#1016
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Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Scarlet Crusade
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Rereading the new text of SoC on PTR, I think it's now a simple mechanic. "In addition, your Seal of Righteousness now hits up to 2 additional targets." becomes "In addition, your Seal of Righteousness now hits all enemy targets within melee range." Use an attack while SoR is active. Any target struck by the attack will also receive a SoR strike. Any target struck by SoR (identical to every target struck with initial attack) also receives a single SoC strike.
One benefit is that under the old SoR cleave mechanic you could lose a jump. If you had 3 targets in a line and struck the middle, SoR could jump one direction or the other, but did not hit all three. Example: Hit target 2, jumps to 1, target 3 now out of range for a jump and receives nothing. The larger benefit is everything hit by DS will get a SoR and SoC.
How does SoR behave on single-target attacks? Does a single target strike (autoattack, CS, Judgement, TV) proc a SoR to everything within melee range? Or do single target strikes entirely lose the cleave effect, thus making SoR somewhat worse on small groups (around 3-5 targets)?
P.S. lyx, is that a typo that your first HoL proc struck one second after all the other attacks hit, including ones listed after it? If that is a literal copy/paste of the combat log, I think it should be reported to Blizzard, as a timing issue of that nature could cause who knows what sort of problems.
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Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
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05/26/11, 1:19 PM
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#1017
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Exemplar
Rereading the new text of SoC on PTR, I think it's now a simple mechanic. "In addition, your Seal of Righteousness now hits up to 2 additional targets." becomes "In addition, your Seal of Righteousness now hits all enemy targets within melee range." Use an attack while SoR is active. Any target struck by the attack will also receive a SoR strike. Any target struck by SoR (identical to every target struck with initial attack) also receives a single SoC strike.
How does SoR behave on single-target attacks? Does a single target strike (autoattack, CS, Judgement, TV) proc a SoR to everything within melee range? Or do single target strikes entirely lose the cleave effect, thus making SoR somewhat worse on small groups (around 3-5 targets)?
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As Trademark mentioned earlier, its does indeed apply SoR on all single target melee attacks-- With the exception of Judgement (and, to a lesser extent, Exorcism). SoR also applies to targets within your target's melee range, as well as targets in your Melee range (making the range on SoR theoretically at 8 or 10 yards).
Because Judgement and Exorcism do not proc SoR, you lose out on the SoC proc on both those attacks (compared to when using SoT).
EDIT: For clarification, each of the Raider's training Dummies atop of Org are 8 yards apart. When standing on one end of a far dummy, SoR only procs one time:
Imageshack - wowscrnshot052611122907.jpg
When standing in between 2 dummies, SoR cleaves to the 2nd one:
Imageshack - wowscrnshot052611122914.jpg
When standing a bit closer to the 2nd dummy, SoR then cleaves to all 3 dummies:
Imageshack - wowscrnshot052611122925.jpg
Last edited by Ronark : 05/26/11 at 1:33 PM.
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05/26/11, 1:42 PM
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#1018
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Don Flamenco
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Also, because it was not posted before and does not pertain to my previous post of the chain effect-- SoR acts like SoT, in terms that it will always hit when your CS/TV/DS/Melee lands, and that it crits for 200% damage.
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05/26/11, 2:53 PM
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#1019
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Dalaran
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Originally Posted by Exemplar
P.S. lyx, is that a typo that your first HoL proc struck one second after all the other attacks hit, including ones listed after it? If that is a literal copy/paste of the combat log, I think it should be reported to Blizzard, as a timing issue of that nature could cause who knows what sort of problems.
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Edit; Server restart looks to have resolved it; HoL, SoC and JotB are functioning properly for me.
I wasn't even able to get HoL procs to happen on PTR just now.
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3729/ptrsealsmay26.jpg
Left side is 4-target SoR from white attacks, no SoC procs. Right side is CSing with SoT, no HoL procs, no SoC procs. Judgements of the Bold also doesn't show a buff or in the combat log but it seems to be returning mana. I've already put it on the PTR bug forum, if anyone else can test and confirm/deny.
Last edited by Cayse : 05/26/11 at 3:55 PM.
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05/26/11, 2:57 PM
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#1020
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Cayse
I wasn't even able to get HoL procs to happen on PTR just now.
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3729/ptrsealsmay26.jpg
Left side is 4-target SoR from white attacks, no SoC procs. Right side is CSing with SoT, no HoL procs, no SoC procs. Judgements of the Bold also doesn't show a buff or in the combat log but it seems to be returning mana. I've already put it on the PTR bug forum, if anyone else can test and confirm/deny.
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HoL does not proc at all.
Judgements will also not proc JotB or JotP after talent/spec switches.
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