The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 70

Schädel · 06/15/11, 7:36 AM

The sequence mentioned above is with 4p T12. 10 seconds of stacking Strength under Zealotry (remember it's now 35 seconds) is better than stacking it before.

At the pull you have to wait for your trinkets to stack 5 times (Vessel of Acceleration + Apparatus of Khaz'goroth will be BiS) so it fits well into our cd rotation if we Zealotry first and delay AV for 15 seconds. The 2nd time we use CD's you could be able to sync it but then you have to delay them because you're waiting for trinket cooldown.

Neldarie · 06/16/11, 3:06 AM

I highly doubt that apparatus will be our BiS, just the reason that it stacks only from white TV and CS crits, i had plenty of times on a premade during PTR where you would just lose the stack (yes no crits in 30seconds). that being said you will lose way too much time holding back with cooldowns "on pull". The rep trinket and many other items such as dps belt which were only ilvl 378 on PTR had 391 in the item database on wowhead, the fact that there is NO str dps belt on a Fireland boss lootlist can give some hope that there will be some way to upgrade those?

ZeroEdge · 06/16/11, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Neldarie

I highly doubt that apparatus will be our BiS, just the reason that it stacks only from white TV and CS crits, i had plenty of times on a premade during PTR where you would just lose the stack (yes no crits in 30seconds). that being said you will lose way too much time holding back with cooldowns "on pull". The rep trinket and many other items such as dps belt which were only ilvl 378 on PTR had 391 in the item database on wowhead, the fact that there is NO str dps belt on a Fireland boss lootlist can give some hope that there will be some way to upgrade those?

Not even hope is needed.

Heroic Raid bosses in Firelands drop 1 Crystallized Firestone. This item can turn any 378 Rep or 378 VP bought item into a 391 Heroic version of itself. There is a vendor for it in the PTR already.

So, if it was bought with VP or from the Avengers of Hyjal faction, you can most certainly upgrade it to 391, to keep it functionally BiS come Heroic loot time.

Maybe they will let it apply to the 378 Trash Epics too...

beingmused · 06/18/11, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by ZeroEdge

Not even hope is needed.

Heroic Raid bosses in Firelands drop 1 Crystallized Firestone. This item can turn any 378 Rep or 378 VP bought item into a 391 Heroic version of itself. There is a vendor for it in the PTR already.

So, if it was bought with VP or from the Avengers of Hyjal faction, you can most certainly upgrade it to 391, to keep it functionally BiS come Heroic loot time.

Maybe they will let it apply to the 378 Trash Epics too...

The Crystallized Firestone vendor on the PTR has only offered 391 upgrades for items purchased with Valor, and BOE epics from Firelands. We have not heard anything about the 378 belts/cloaks/trinkets from Avengers of Hyjal rep being upgradable. I would think a great deal of hope would be needed to believe that we'll get a 391 belt!

PunnyDMF · 06/19/11, 7:03 AM

Originally Posted by beingmused

The Crystallized Firestone vendor on the PTR has only offered 391 upgrades for items purchased with Valor, and BOE epics from Firelands. We have not heard anything about the 378 belts/cloaks/trinkets from Avengers of Hyjal rep being upgradable. I would think a great deal of hope would be needed to believe that we'll get a 391 belt!

There are only 7 bosses, and of course there wiill be the possibility to get 391 in every item slot. The belts are indeed upgradeable to 391. The fact that the vendor doesn't have them yet is largely irrelevant. The item is in the game:

Cinch of the Flaming Ember - Item - World of Warcraft

Althor · 06/19/11, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by solacespecs

SimulationCraft incorrectly weighs the value of DMC:H.

I've checked in a fix to SimulationCraft that should correctly pick up 2H weapon specialization for the DMC:H.
The reports I've generated show a 20% increase to the DPS of DMC:H after the change.

Warrex · 06/20/11, 2:02 AM

Hi guys,
anyone was thinking about upcoming patch in the way they impelent our current 4set Bonus in to talent tree so the 2xretri + 2xtank T11 could be best option for few weeks untill we got T12 ?

Dram · 06/20/11, 5:23 PM

Actually the change to Inquiry of Faith makes 4pc even better since it increases the duration of Inquisition by an additional two seconds per holy power.

Handled · 06/20/11, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by Neldarie

I highly doubt that apparatus will be our BiS, just the reason that it stacks only from white TV and CS crits, i had plenty of times on a premade during PTR where you would just lose the stack (yes no crits in 30seconds). that being said you will lose way too much time holding back with cooldowns "on pull". The rep trinket and many other items such as dps belt which were only ilvl 378 on PTR had 391 in the item database on wowhead, the fact that there is NO str dps belt on a Fireland boss lootlist can give some hope that there will be some way to upgrade those?

I did about 5-6 10+ min tests on the PTR on a premade reforged properly for 961 hit and 481 Expertise and I rarely if ever dropped either stack. Obviously a 30 second stack on the Apparatus is much easier to maintain than the 20 second stack on the Vessel but all in all it felt pretty solid and it was stacking on Exo/Judgement crits as well as CS/TV.

The biggest issue I see that we will face is maintaining a high enough level of Mastery while using a crit stacking trinket in a raid to keep the Apparatus of Khaz'goroth providing us Mastery and not Crit.

Neldarie · 06/20/11, 9:42 PM

Originally Posted by Handled

I did about 5-6 10+ min tests on the PTR on a premade reforged properly for 961 hit and 481 Expertise and I rarely if ever dropped either stack. Obviously a 30 second stack on the Apparatus is much easier to maintain than the 20 second stack on the Vessel but all in all it felt pretty solid and it was stacking on Exo/Judgement crits as well as CS/TV.

The biggest issue I see that we will face is maintaining a high enough level of Mastery while using a crit stacking trinket in a raid to keep the Apparatus of Khaz'goroth providing us Mastery and not Crit.

Must have been changed in the latest PTR build as they weren't stacking/refreshing together for me, im 100% positive about that on the last PTR boss raid.

Biggest issue is trinket being a biggest piece of garbage in terms of mechanics and itemization, heroic HoR beats it in every aspect hands down.

PS: Just logged on PTR : Exo crit do NOT proc either of the trinkets (vessel + apparatus), Judgement crits proc both, + seal of righteousness and seal of truth crits that DO proc vessel but NOT apparatus.

Babathong · 06/20/11, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Handled

I did about 5-6 10+ min tests on the PTR on a premade reforged properly for 961 hit and 481 Expertise and I rarely if ever dropped either stack. Obviously a 30 second stack on the Apparatus is much easier to maintain than the 20 second stack on the Vessel but all in all it felt pretty solid and it was stacking on Exo/Judgement crits as well as CS/TV.

The biggest issue I see that we will face is maintaining a high enough level of Mastery while using a crit stacking trinket in a raid to keep the Apparatus of Khaz'goroth providing us Mastery and not Crit.

On PTR with a 378 premade, hit and expertise capped, reforged for Mastery>Crit>Haste, it looks like the issue above is indeed a valid concern. Unbuffed, my mastery and crit ratings are almost identical. This however does not take into account the stacking crit rating that we will obtain with the Vessel of Acceleration trinket. At 5 stacks, I had an additional 385 crit rating which ultimately puts my Crit rating above my Mastery rating by 361. I am not sure if the Apparatus trinket will choose based on your unbuffed stat ratings, or if it goes off of whatever your stats are when it is activated. If it is the latter, the trinket will in fact be choosing crit.

Another thing I noticed back when I was setting up my premade was that my Mastery rating as a whole was much lower than on live, even with the premade being in full 378 gear. Mind you this is using all 5 pieces of tier gear, which are not itemized that well. The offset pieces are not much better, as Mastery is not found on the majority of the pieces. Once fully reforged, I had about 5% less mastery on PTR than live. This is largely in part due to the amount of hit and expertise that is needed to be reforged in order to obtain caps. Obviously there will be other gear options than what comes on the premade, and this difference could shrink, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Savius · 06/21/11, 11:10 AM

EDIT: this has not been discussed anywhere in the thread and I think it is very important for maximizing dps. This is the reason why I did not post it in the simple questions thread.

I just got my Heart of Rage heroic and I'm having problems timing it with my CDs and with fight events.
If HoR procs would be more than 2 min apart I would delay AW+Zeal such that they overlap. But the proc has the tendency to slip ahead and they just get out of sync. Also, I need to be at 3hp when HoR procs (to use Zeal). There seem to be so many ifs.

Am I missing something? How do you guys handle this?
How do you make sure that for example for Magmaw you have the proc up while the head is exposed for the first and the 3rd time?

I am tracking the buff, working on tracking the ICD with clcinfo, just need the ID.
What is the ID for the internal cooldown on the Heart of Rage heroic?
I've been searching quite a lot but I can't find it. And for the future, where can I find the list of proc IDs and ICD IDs for any item?

Before HoR, I was using Impatience of Youth because I simply macro-ed it to AW+Zeal and could have 100% overlap.
What about using HoR and IoY as the two trinkets? IoY can be used during the HoR proc (no conflict like in the case of using two on use str trinkets). If we could overlap the proc and the on use, it would give a huuuge burst: 2200+1600 str for 20 sec during AW+Zeal+GoAK+Golemblood potion.
Any thoughts?

Handled · 06/21/11, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Neldarie

Exo crit do NOT proc either of the trinkets (vessel + apparatus), Judgement crits proc both, + seal of righteousness and seal of truth crits that DO proc vessel but NOT apparatus.

Yup went and tested it again and after I fixed cascade so I could clearly track what was procing it I can see exo definitely does not. Still not a fan of the trinkets both being stacking but what can you do.

Originally Posted by Babathong

On PTR with a 378 premade, hit and expertise capped, reforged for Mastery>Crit>Haste, it looks like the issue above is indeed a valid concern.

Cancelaura Accelerated use trinket? Sounds awful but I can't see getting Crit rating to be near the DPS as Mastery.

Daeluin · 06/21/11, 1:40 PM

A precursory look at the items which we have seen seems to indicate that the problem of expertise will not be nearly the issue that it was in Tier 11. It appears only slot we'll absolutely have to have expertise on is the cloak (Bladed Flamewrath Cover, from rep). There are non-expertise items for every other slot, which is going to give us a lot more flexibility. It helps that there's not expertise plastered all over the more accessible weapons (or any of them for that matter).

To echo what others have mentioned, we're going to end up with much higher levels of crit compared to mastery than we had in the previous tier, the concern here being the Apparatus of Khaz'gorath. The concern is there even before factoring in the Vessel of Acceleration. You could sacrifice crit in favor of haste to get your crit higher than mastery, but that is offsetting your gain from the trinket proc changing to a more favorable stat. With the addition of the Vessel of Acceleration, the situation is definitely iffy and will require more computation. At least the rep trinket (Essence of the Eternal Flame) isn't horribly itemized and may be a competitive option, though it will cause additional issues for engineers (mastery static with strength on use at one minute CD).

As far as candidates for offset items in set pieces slots, there are multiple options to consider:

1. The set chest has haste/expertise, but as I indicated, the expertise can probably be fully utilized with ease. The offset chest is haste/mastery. Toying with reforging of a probable 391 set makes it appear that we will be better off keeping the set chest.

2. The set helm has hit/crit where the offset one has crit/mastery, so there's an option with our ideal itemization, although having a blue gem slot instead of red gem slot is going to cost 20 strength, though gaining 20 hit, which definitely appears able to be fully utilized. This will have to be considered, but it seems to me that the helm is probably going to be the best bet for offset, which is a real shame since the set helm looks so fantastic. Maybe I'll be wrong on this one, because hey, if our characters don't look awesome, what's all this been about?

3. Another option worth considering is using the Prot T12 shoulders with the other four slots being the Ret pieces. The Ret shoulders have crit/haste where the Prot counterparts have hit/mastery. Playing around with a set of 391 gear, after reforging this seems like a better option than swapping to the offset chest, but not as good as swapping to the helm.
Edit: Calefax caught my oversight that the Prot shoulders are way short on strength.

Further calculations will be needed to verify my figuring with certainty, but it's definitely a safe bet to start out getting legs first and gloves (?) thereafter.

Exemplar · 06/21/11, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Handled

Cancelaura Accelerated use trinket? Sounds awful but I can't see getting Crit rating to be near the DPS as Mastery.

First, I haven't integrated the (very minor) 4.2 changes to my spreadsheet yet, but having said that I don't expect them to significantly impact stat weight comparisons. Crit is pretty close to Mastery. Not exactly as good, no, but still quite valuable. In my present gear Crit is worth 1.07 DPS and Mastery 1.2 DPS.

I virtually guarantee the Apparatus will pull from stats at time of proc (otherwise it requires excessive additional programming to decide what to include/exclude - gear? enchants? gems? raid buff A? raid buff B? Ad nauseum).

Apparatus - 1530 Mastery (1836 DPS) vs 1530 Crit (1637 DPS).
Vessel - 385 Crit (412 DPS).

Where X is some value of DPS provided from Vessel's crit buff being applied during Apparatus usage.
1836 + X = 1637 + 412
X = 213 DPS

Babathong was close enough between the stats that a single stack would push Crit ahead, so we can't cancelaura early and stack to just below Mastery before engage for maximum benefit - 0 stacks is maximum starting level.

For simple numbers, let's say you get a Vessel stack every 5 seconds.

0 - No stacks, Apparatus engaged.
5 - Crit, 1 stack - 77 Crit
10 - Crit, 2 stacks - 154 Crit
15 - Crit, 3 stacks - 231 Crit
20 - Crit, 4 stacks - 308 Crit
25 - Crit, 5 stacks - 385 Crit
30 - Apparatus ends.

((5*385) + (5*308) + (5*231) + (5*154) + (5*77))/30 = 192.5 Crit * 1.07 = 206 DPS. Which is slightly less than just letting Apparatus proc Crit.

This was saying you get a Vessel-stacking-valid Crit every 5 seconds. Crit being what it is, sometimes you'd have better procs (faster stack) and get more mileage. Of course, Crit being what it is, it's also possible that the rating could give you a nice RNG streak and gain a lot more DPS from letting Apparatus proc Crit.

I think it's another of those silly "we won't be able to see it in the RNG" situations. It also adds significant risk. Cancelaura in the macro with Use could have odd impact at server and cause Apparatus to proc Crit before you lose the rating (server timing is notoriously flaky), thus gaining worst possible scenario.

If Crit Rating is as close as Babathong's, if you Cancelaura separately and before using Apparatus, if a fresh proc gives a single Vessel stack between the two you would still proc Crit, providing another bad scenario (Crit proc and only 1 Vessel stack at start).