The Retribution Concordance - 4.3, Voice of the DPS - Page 9

dregernator · 12/23/10, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by chippydip

For reference, here's a weighted wowhead item comparison: Items - World of Warcraft I went with the stat weights that were the most optimistic about the value of secondary stats. Using the lower set of weight, the PvP gear would look even more attractive. (As an aside, the value of hit and expertise are unimportant since any excess will be reforged to crit/haste and visa versa. All we really care about is the marginal value of those secondary stats and since extra points will go toward crit/haste then hit and expertise can't be any more valuable than those stats when comparing items. This holds for the value of enchants/gems as well assuming you can reforge to the caps with minimal waste.)

After looking at this list and then looking at my char, I noticed that the cloak I was wearing wasn't on it. When I looked at my cloak, (Burned Gatherings - Item - World of Warcraft) I verified that it is a 346 cloak with the same armor and stam, but is lacking 48 str that the others have. Anyone have an idea as if this is going to be changed or should I just grab a new cloak.

Pdawg · 12/23/10, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by dregernator

After looking at this list and then looking at my char, I noticed that the cloak I was wearing wasn't on it. When I looked at my cloak, (Burned Gatherings - Item - World of Warcraft) I verified that it is a 346 cloak with the same armor and stam, but is lacking 48 str that the others have. Anyone have an idea as if this is going to be changed or should I just grab a new cloak.

The missing strength suggests that its better suited for tanking.

• malthrin · 12/23/10, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pdawg

The missing strength suggests that its better suited for tanking.

Right. The missing strength is reflected in increased secondary stats, which a tank would prefer. Another example of such an item is [Red Rock Band].

Rammurg · 12/23/10, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by dregernator

After looking at this list and then looking at my char, I noticed that the cloak I was wearing wasn't on it. When I looked at my cloak, (Burned Gatherings - Item - World of Warcraft) I verified that it is a 346 cloak with the same armor and stam, but is lacking 48 str that the others have. Anyone have an idea as if this is going to be changed or should I just grab a new cloak.

That is actually a tanking cloak, and it's not the only such item with "confusing" stats - a mastery-expertise ring from Ramkahen reputation comes to mind. Generally when a tank item has a threat stat, some of the budget from Strength is moved to secondary stats.

Babathong · 12/23/10, 4:57 PM

Do we know how far behind, if at all, that Engineering is compared to other professions? The OP states that most of the tinkers are NYI, so I am assuming that it hasn't been updated yet. I am not really sure how to model some of the Engineering benefits, and am trying to decide if dropping Engineering is the way to go.

HamSlammer · 12/23/10, 8:51 PM

Has anyone noticed higher than advertised Art of War procs lately? I've only been tracking it for the past two nights and I'm sure the sample size isn't large enough (3719 white swings) to concretely say anything, but we've averaged a 26.1% proc rate (971 procs) over the past two raids. I haven't really perused any other logs beyond our own either, so this could just be dumb luck.

I'd venture that someone else will know a much more suitable sample size and testing parameters to find out if my hunch is right or not.

Originally Posted by Babathong

Do we know how far behind, if at all, that Engineering is compared to other professions? The OP states that most of the tinkers are NYI, so I am assuming that it hasn't been updated yet. I am not really sure how to model some of the Engineering benefits, and am trying to decide if dropping Engineering is the way to go.

Currently, I'd venture Engineering to be the best for the vast majority of people simply due to the fact epic DPS helms only come from Nefarion and Cho'gall. The difference between [Reinforced Bio-Optic Killshades] with 2xCogwheels and [Stonemason's Helm] (the best 346 helm) nearly equals a professions bonus (generally 80-81 Strength) by itself.

However, T11 helmet is a flat out better helmet than the Engineering Goggles, which means Engineering loses it's edges the further into current content we get.

What's curious is that Engineering is 2nd best profession for nearly any caster, due to the Synapse Springs averaging to 96 Intellect.

In the end, I do believe the viability of this profession lies in the Hydraulic gems and what they actually turn out to be.

Noraj · 12/23/10, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

Has anyone noticed higher than advertised Art of War procs lately? I've only been tracking it for the past two nights and I'm sure the sample size isn't large enough (3719 white swings) to concretely say anything, but we've averaged a 26.1% proc rate (971 procs) over the past two raids. I haven't really perused any other logs beyond our own either, so this could just be dumb luck.

After having taken a look at a number of arbitrarily chosen logs featuring ret paladins, it seems you are correct. The proc rate for Art of War is certainly capable of passing the 20% tooltip mark, and only one case yielded the expected 20% procrate, but with a sample size of only 100 swings. The highs and lows I observed were 24% and 29% respectively, though I didn't have anywhere near enough data to figure out the range with any real accuracy. This should account for any unused procs as well, as aura refreshes are counted as gains in WoL to the best of my knowledge, which should make any dummy testing for procrate easy as the player can start meleeing and walk away.

Also, if there were previously any questions about it, The Art of War can proc if the triggering blow is blocked.

[21:01:34.996] Eckdahl hits Magmaw 3754 (O: -1, B: 1609)
[21:01:35.542] Eckdahl gains The Art of War from Eckdahl

Incadelico · 12/24/10, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

Currently, I'd venture Engineering to be the best for the vast majority of people simply due to the fact epic DPS helms only come from Nefarion and Cho'gall. The difference between [Reinforced Bio-Optic Killshades] with 2xCogwheels and [Stonemason's Helm] (the best 346 helm) nearly equals a professions bonus (generally 80-81 Strength) by itself.

Funny thing is, if you look at the wowhead comparison posted earlier [Daybreaker Helm] comes out as the best (using Redcapes stat weights it comes as a close second) 359 DPS helm, even though it's a tanking one due to it's sheer amount of strength.

Tobrexa · 12/24/10, 6:28 AM

I noticed that some effects reduce Crusader Strike Cooldown way below 3 seconds, most notably the windbuff in Vortex Pinnacle during the 2nd boss. I was quite surprised to see my CS almost on (melee abilities)GCD in terms of speed. Does anyone have an idea why that is, and are there conclusions to draw regarding overall mecanics? Perhaps I missed something crucial.

Noraj · 12/24/10, 6:58 AM

Originally Posted by Tobrexa

I noticed that some effects reduce Crusader Strike Cooldown way below 3 seconds, most notably the windbuff in Vortex Pinnacle during the 2nd boss. I was quite surprised to see my CS almost on (melee abilities)GCD in terms of speed. Does anyone have an idea why that is, and are there conclusions to draw regarding overall mecanics? Perhaps I missed something crucial.

I think what you're missing is that 3.0 isn't the lowest possible cooldown allowable by Sanctity of Battle, but 3 seconds is the lowest we ever want the cooldown to be, as it allows us to cast cs->filler->cs->filler->cs->TV, with the filler often being an Art of War or Hand of Light proc.

In short, the more haste we have, the more GCD's we end up spending on harder hitting attacks instead of lackluster filler spells, but at the 3 second mark, we quit gaining as much from this situation since we approach a full GCD lock with almost no downtime, relegating haste to only increasing Censure's tick rate past that point, and upping our autoattack damage while not leaving us quite enough room to make proper use of the increased number of Art of War or Hand of Light procs we might obtain with a faster swing speed.

Tobrexa · 12/24/10, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by Noraj

I think what you're missing is that 3.0 isn't the lowest possible cooldown allowable by Sanctity of Battle, but 3 seconds is the lowest we ever want the cooldown to be, as it allows us to cast cs->filler->cs->filler->cs->TV, with the filler often being an Art of War or Hand of Light proc.

In short, the more haste we have, the more GCD's we end up spending on harder hitting attacks instead of lackluster filler spells, but at the 3 second mark, we quit gaining as much from this situation since we approach a full GCD lock with almost no downtime, relegating haste to only increasing Censure's tick rate past that point, and upping our autoattack damage while not leaving us quite enough room to make proper use of the increased number of Art of War or Hand of Light procs we might obtain with a faster swing speed.

Ok I begin to comprehend. I assumed that 3sec was the lowest cd possible, and I interpreted the wordings in the OP and previous threads as such. My bad!

Nevertheless, what is the rotation to follow under the effets of such a speedbuff? CS until the harderhitting abilities are available? And just for information, is gcd of CS spell or melee?

Josefar · 12/24/10, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Incadelico

Funny thing is, if you look at the wowhead comparison posted earlier [Daybreaker Helm] comes out as the best (using Redcapes stat weights it comes as a close second) 359 DPS helm, even though it's a tanking one due to it's sheer amount of strength.

Dragon Bone Warhelm from Maloriak has Expertise/Mastery rating stats with a stamina socket bonus, may be a tank head aswell but certainly better than that head.

(Yea ok i was clearly speaking too soon, knowing that stamina on items have been generalized even between tanks and the rest i thought str would be the same deal, guess not the case)

chippydip · 12/24/10, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Josefar

Dragon Bone Warhelm from Maloriak has Expertise/Mastery rating stats with a stamina socket bonus, may be a tank head aswell but certainly better than that head.

Certainly not.

[Dragon Bone Warhelm] has 259 Strength
[Helm of Maddening Whispers] has 281 Strength
[Reinforced Sapphirium Helmet] has 281 Strength
[Daybreaker Helm] has a whopping 341 Strength

281 is the "normal" amount of Strength on a 359 headpiece. Dragon Bone Warhelm is definitely designed to be a tank piece judging from the socket bonus and has had its Strength budget reduced in order to increase the amount of mastery on the item (the heroic version is about on par with the other 3 regular mode helms). Daybreak Helm is also clearly a tank piece, but for whatever reason it's had its Strength budget *drastically* increased at the cost of secondary stats.

Daybreak Helm and T11 are pretty much tied for BiS (normal or heroic versions). Helm of Maddening Whispers is a bit behind due to its lackluster socket bonus, but still pretty decent. T11 will clearly be the best item here due to set bonuses, but Daybreak Helm might be much easier to get in the near future. Helm of Maddening Whispers drops off Cho'gall and the T11 head tokens drop from Nef whereas the Daybreak Helm drops from Valiona.

I definitely plan to try and pickup a Daybreak Helm once our tanks have theirs. The Vicious Gladiator's helm will be a better interim helm if it completes a 2pc or 4pc bonus I wouldn't otherwise have, but if I can't snag an extra bonus then Daybreak will be very nice until T11 at which point I can use it in my prot set.

Exemplar · 12/24/10, 11:14 AM

Ham and Noraj - could you check your AoW data compared to your haste? It's possible the 20% is being transformed from a percent into a PPM mechanic, which is then effected by haste. I.e. it sets your PPM off base weaponspeed, then when your weapospeed is reduced by haste your true PPM rise and you receive more than 20% AoW procs. If we can nail down this mechanic (or know Onyxia is simply doing more Deep Breaths) we can improve our models.

Tobrexa, the priority does not change with a ridiculously low CS CD. You still use your harder hitting attacks first. It simply (hopefully) means far fewer Judgement, Holy Wrath, and Consecration used.

Mewee · 12/24/10, 1:02 PM

Looked through some logs to find out the real value of E4E in current raids. It seems like there's quite a bit of variation between the different parses, but none the less it seems to be pretty clear that it's almost a must have talent for maximizing damage output - more than I thought after running with it for a month in ICC.

Here's a few examples (from random WoL logs):

Atramedes 25 - 2%
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Chogall 25 - 2.7%
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Vali&Thera 25 - 2.4%
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Nefarian 25 with a surprising 3.6% damage
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Some other fights like Maloriak, Council and Halfus I was seeing numbers around 0.9 to 1.2%, but this is definately evidence that this talent gains a lot of wind in the current raid tier. Just something to consider for those who's been skipping it so far.