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Old 08/19/11, 2:28 PM   #1336
wellsdaddy
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Terenas
I would think that statement would be upheld if all 20 rating from the hybrid gem were always able to be applied to the aforementioned secondary stat that has passed the halfway value of strength, or if your secondary stat was well past the half-way mark.

In my personal experience, mastery is just slightly past the half-way point of strength, but using hit/str gems for blue sockets with +10str bonuses in 4 sockets left me with 75 extra mastery instead of 80 while losing 40 strength, which actually netted a dps loss of 3 or 4. I think its too gear/player-specific to make a blanket statement like that, folks just need to sim/spreadsheet to find their personal stat-weights that they choose to follow, then take the time to plug-n-play to squeeze out all they can.

I would imagine also this is only going to be an option at higher gear levels, perhaps 368-370 ilvl and above-ish, so the players studying these forum posts need to keep that in mind when they come across ideas/theories like this.



*Sorry Exemp, took to long to type this, but my response was intended to the previous post from Electral

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Old 08/19/11, 4:01 PM   #1337
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by wellsdaddy View Post
I would think that statement would be upheld if all 20 rating from the hybrid gem were always able to be applied to the aforementioned secondary stat that has passed the halfway value of strength, or if your secondary stat was well past the half-way mark.
Wellsdaddy is very correct. It probably could use more stress - only if the set bonus is sufficient. Also, it can depend on reforging. If the best you can come is 5-10 points over Hit cap, then that Str/Hit gem to gain a bonus probably didn't pass break even, much less provide a gain.

Bottom line, no Electral, the statement is not uniformly true. Hybrids gems are situationally worthwhile.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 08/20/11, 7:35 PM   #1338
fearsie
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Cho'gall
I've been using your spreadsheet for a long time Exemplar, and just want to say thank you for your hard work. I do however have a question that I havent seen asked or mentioned in a while. I basically d/l a new sheet anytime you make a new one and manually enter all my stats/gems/gear. I was wondering if/when the import feature would be added. I see the placeholder for it is my only reason for asking. I'm sure you have enough on your plate so I'm not asking you to add the feature just wondering is all.

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Old 08/22/11, 8:36 AM   #1339
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by fearsie View Post
I've been using your spreadsheet for a long time Exemplar, and... I was wondering if/when the import feature would be added.
The answer is typically: when I have time and am happy with everything else. Based on last X-pac, about the last tier of the X-pac, right before everything else has to be re-done again from scratch. I'd prefer something to import from the Armoury for folks, but I haven't found any clever tutorials of how to do so from the new Armoury to Excel (via Excel's inefficient Visual Basic). HTML/JSON/whatever is not my comfortable realm, so figuring out how to grab and parse a feed is not something I can feel my way through.

I have a major overhaul I would like to perform first, which will give more accurate normal vs. AW usages (rather than the 1/6th of the time average). I probably won't even be able to make a start on it for about 3 weeks, so export/import will not be very near term.

You can manually transfer sets by unhiding the Saved tab, then copy/pasting between spreadsheets. Close and re-open the new for it to pick up the copied information as a valid option to load. Note that this does not universally work, if I had to readjust things (item slot suddenly allowed more than 3 gems, new enchant/engineering location, something new can/cannot be reforged, etc) it alters the order which causes old saved information to fail (gems load in reforge slots, reforge in item slots, etc). If that happens, just return to the old fashioned manual setup.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 08/22/11, 10:26 AM   #1340
Pliers
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Garona
I've been internally debating the ideal rotation during Zealotry, and was wondering if there was any math to support one way over another. I have the 4 piece tier 12 bonus, which is what I am wondering about most.

My gut says that I should skip HW, and potentially judgement, since using them as filler will push back CS, and end up with less CSes and TVs during Zealotry. If AoK was active, it would be even more likely that skipping one or both filler spells would be an increase in damage. Due to Exorcism's damage being close to TV's, I do not think it would be beneficial to leave it out (unless you have 3 holy power and a divine purpose proc).

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Old 08/22/11, 2:33 PM   #1341
Iroared
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Monk
 
Черный Шрам (EU)
I was wondering about how and when Inquisition is best refreshed. Most sources suggest using 3hp Inq when there are 5 seconds or so left, but that doesn't cover most scenarios.
First, is it best to wait for 3 hp on the initial pull, or would it be better to use inq after the first TV (unless DP procs from judgement)? That also applies to times when something goes wrong and Inq drops while you still don't have 3hp.
Second, I assume using Inq (rather, being forced to do so) during Zealotry/AW is a loss of DPS, but how serious is that? Is it better to renew it and delay CDs, or just pop them asap and use Inq during the CD's?

In particular, on Majordomo(H) I've been popping AW/Z with my first 3HP, which allowed me to get a couple of TVs/HoW before the first cleave (plus, they would benefit from the pre-pot). Then I would have all CDs up about when I hit 100 concentration in cat phase. I was wondering if anyone had better approaches to using CDs on this boss.

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Old 08/22/11, 7:25 PM   #1342
RebornTN
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Sargeras
I've got 2 questions about our current priority for ability use.

According to the initial post our priority is:
The Ret paladin "rotation" shares something with Wrath - it is priority based. The priority for single-target is one of the following:
Inq > CS > HoW > Exo > TV > J > HW > Cons
Inq > CS > TV > HoW > Exo > J > HW > Cons

Use the sequence which is more advantageous for your own gear. Both spreadsheets presently recommend the first for at least high end gear sets.
According to Exemplars spreadsheet this priority holds true: Inq > CS > HoW > Exo > TV > J > HW > Cons
Simcraft however pulls a different rotation: Inq > CS > TV > HoW > Exo > J > HW > Cons

and as Sjogren said:
TV > HoW > Exo has been the best priority (or close enough to not matter) I've seen in simc regardless of gear level I've tried.
Exemplar's sheet shows ~500dps Decrease going from HoW > Exo > TV to TV > HoW > Exo. However I am not familiar enough with Simcraft yet to modify the rotation but will work on it to test for my personal gearing.

So my questions are:
1)Does gearing towards haste or crit, along with the amount of mastery you have, change what priority may be better?
2)Is our Damage so RNG dependent that either priority is truly okay or does one priority seem to hold a true lead over another?

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Old 08/22/11, 10:54 PM   #1343
fearsie
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Cho'gall
You can manually transfer sets by unhiding the Saved tab, then copy/pasting between spreadsheets. Close and re-open the new for it to pick up the copied information as a valid option to load. Note that this does not universally work, if I had to readjust things (item slot suddenly allowed more than 3 gems, new enchant/engineering location, something new can/cannot be reforged, etc) it alters the order which causes old saved information to fail (gems load in reforge slots, reforge in item slots, etc). If that happens, just return to the old fashioned manual setup.
Didn't think about the manual import like that on 2 sheets that don't change too much. Thanks for the reply and the heads up for things to come.

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Old 08/23/11, 1:25 AM   #1344
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by RebornTN View Post
So my questions are:
1)Does gearing towards haste or crit, along with the amount of mastery you have, change what priority may be better?
2)Is our Damage so RNG dependent that either priority is truly okay or does one priority seem to hold a true lead over another?
It becomes the issue of wasting procs and "actual cooldown" on HoW. The theory is that with HoW/Exo first, you do not have as many of the "lesser" fillers.

Take the example where you just CS'd to bring you to 3 Holy Power and Exo procs. Your two options are TV > Exo > CS, or Exo > TV > CS. With the first, you have a chance of your melee swing landing before the GCD from TV is finished and proccing Exorcism again, causing a wasted proc and a potentially wasted DP proc form the additional Exorcism.

The issue comes to when you have a CS at or under the 3 second mark (when under Zeal) or 1.5 seconds (where you could CSx3 then TV). In these scenarios, you would potentially have more damage from CS > TV due to increased Mastery damage per GCD.

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Old 08/23/11, 1:27 AM   #1345
sjogren
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Sha'tar (EU)
Originally Posted by RebornTN View Post
1)Does gearing towards haste or crit, along with the amount of mastery you have, change what priority may be better?
2)Is our Damage so RNG dependent that either priority is truly okay or does one priority seem to hold a true lead over another?
In real-life practice? You're not going to be able to see a 1-2% difference from combat logs. Consider that the simulations we do in simc take thousands of iterations to get the standard deviation down to acceptable levels. How many weeks of raiding is that?

In the T12 heroic profile the difference between TV > HoW > Exo and HoW > Exo > TV is less than 200 dps, which is well under 1%, though iirc the difference is larger at lower gear levels. When we hit the next raid tier I'll revise the action list again.

And of course, you're able to edit the action list for yourself, it's not that tricky.

You'll pretty much automatically have enough haste to get the CS cooldown down to 3s under bloodlust which means that under zealotry you can do CS-X-CS-X-... as long as X is a non-spell (i.e. fixed at 1.5s cooldown) but you're not going to be able to get enough haste to push CS down to CS-Y-CS-Y-... when Y is a spell. So no, haste doesn't really affect your rotation.


Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
Take the example where you just CS'd to bring you to 3 Holy Power and Exo procs. Your two options are TV > Exo > CS, or Exo > TV > CS. With the first, you have a chance of your melee swing landing before the GCD from TV is finished and proccing Exorcism again, causing a wasted proc and a potentially wasted DP proc form the additional Exorcism.
But on the other hand if you have DP up, an Exo could waste you a DP proc, and that's more likely than a melee swing wasting your Exo proc.

I have tried action lists where TV is prioritized during zealotry and HoW/Exo otherwise, but the difference compared to always prioritizing TV is well below the margin of error so I've opted for the simpler action list. The other prioritization may come into play in T13.

Last edited by sjogren : 08/23/11 at 1:34 AM.


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Old 08/23/11, 12:16 PM   #1346
Ronark
Don Flamenco
 
Ronark's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by sjogren View Post
But on the other hand if you have DP up, an Exo could waste you a DP proc, and that's more likely than a melee swing wasting your Exo proc.

I have tried action lists where TV is prioritized during zealotry and HoW/Exo otherwise, but the difference compared to always prioritizing TV is well below the margin of error so I've opted for the simpler action list. The other prioritization may come into play in T13.
This is correct. I believe it was mentioned here before, but you could expand the Priority to:

Inquisition > CS at under 3 Holy Power > TV with DP > Exorcism on Demons/Undead > HoW > Exorcism > TV at 3 Holy Power > Judgement > Holy Wrath > Consecration > empty GCDs, used for Divine Plea, etc.

So in the scenario presented, if you just had a DP proc with 2 Holy Power and proceeded to CS to 3 Holy Power, and Exorcism procs, you would use TV first, followed by Exorcism and then TV again, despite pushing CS back a GCD.

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Old 08/23/11, 1:24 PM   #1347
Nisall
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Dunemaul (EU)
Originally Posted by Ronark View Post
This is correct. I believe it was mentioned here before, but you could expand the Priority to:

Inquisition > CS at under 3 Holy Power > TV with DP > Exorcism on Demons/Undead > HoW > Exorcism > TV at 3 Holy Power > Judgement > Holy Wrath > Consecration > empty GCDs, used for Divine Plea, etc.

So in the scenario presented, if you just had a DP proc with 2 Holy Power and proceeded to CS to 3 Holy Power, and Exorcism procs, you would use TV first, followed by Exorcism and then TV again, despite pushing CS back a GCD.
You should never delay CS*. In the situation you mentioned you should CS for 3hp > TV dp > TV hp > CS > exo > filler and not CS for 3 hp > TV dp > exo > TV hp > CS > filler. You just lost 1 HP if you look in long run and if you do that enough during a fight it will add up to quite a few TV losses for the chance you might gain an extra AoW proc.


*past cs > filler > filler > cs

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Old 08/25/11, 5:41 PM   #1348
Êuclid
Glass Joe
 
Êuclid's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Illidan
Against undeads you will want to keep up Exo as much as possible because 100% crit means the intial attack and furthermore the dot crits will give u added dps during your fillers/burst. I was always wondering is Exo could pull ahead of HoW because of the dot damage that HoW does not have. I Might use 1 HoW during a burst and only because i didnt get a AoW or DP proc. And it will put burst way high.
It taps into the unresisted holy damage that is accumulating from FotF. Also I'd like to see some high parses from top rets using a haste strategy before I try it. Maybe in T12 it can be further discussed but as of now I don't see it beating out Mastery or crit. The more crit you have means higher HoL average, and Higher mastery increases this effect. Haste would only benefit AoW see'ing as the CS demand for haste this tier is unattainable as of now. Melee swing timer is to slow with 1 2h for haste to be all that benicial to get more AoW procs. And sometimes that extra lack of haste is what gives us double fillers(CS/Inq/Judgement).
That would give a better chance to proc a DP which would be more dps than an AoW, overriding previous exo dots and so on and so forth would not be a dps increase. As far as inq goes you can use it as a filler, if you have 2 seconds left on it and throw in another CS. The extra time you get from the inq will result in more HP accumulated in the long run. So I would go as far to say as CS>Inq>TV>Exo>HoW>J>HW>ConS This way always grants you HP and never leaves you starving for procs.

Last edited by Êuclid : 08/27/11 at 7:50 PM.

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Old 08/26/11, 1:47 AM   #1349
Pawpurr
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightninghoof
Since the question of "How to open" has been posed multiple times, I will post here what I do when pulling Heroic Ragnaros. We do an 8 second countdown on the pull, because a number of our raiders do "certain things" before the pull.

@ t-8 countdown begins
@ t-2 I press a macro which swaps on 4pc t11 prot and casts GoaK
@ t-1 I press a macro which swaps my regular gear on, and drinks a golemblood potion.
@ 3hp I inquistion for the first time and Zealotry
@ 20s remaining on Zealotry, or 5 stacks of Titanic Power (Whichever comes first) cast AW and follow TV>HoW priority

Visual Guide

I open with CS, and do not cast inquisition until I have 3 hp/DP proc. I cast Zealotry at the same time. It is a DPS gain to get Inquisition up sooner but not worth delaying Zealotry (you want the whole 35 seconds under GoaK if possible). Definitely use a DP if it procs early.

I follow HoW>Exo>TV until I have either 5 stacks of titanic power (the AoK trinket buff), or until there are 20 seconds left on GoAK/Zealotry, and then use AW. If I don't have 5 AoK stacks when using AW, I can delay the trinkets use by 5 seconds more (so that the 15 second buff is still within the last 15 seconds of Z, AW, GoaK). You can use Hammer of Wrath for a likely crit to get an extra stack, to have as many stacks as possible before 15 seconds remain on your CDs. It is not worth delaying further, so if you have to use it even with only 1 stack, go for it, because you need it to keep lining up with your cooldowns and you'll have 5 stacks every other time.

While the +2800 mastery is active, I change my priority to TV>HoW. When it expires, I resume the normal priority. The reason for this, is that I reach about 5000 mastery with the buff, that makes a non-crit TV+HoL hit for more than a crit HoW in my gear -- Hand of Light deals around 107% of TV's damage. With heroism, that means your rotation is CS->TV for 15 seconds straight. Bonus points if you can time all this together with the shattering throws from your DPS warriors as well.

Last edited by Pawpurr : 08/26/11 at 3:01 AM.

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Old 08/27/11, 3:38 AM   #1350
Medieve
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Turalyon
I've been hesitant to post, since I was never sure if my own spreadsheet was correct. But I've deconstructed it several times, run the numbers over 100k times, and I keep coming up with the same answer. I've been getting this answer for some time now, in fact, I thought my spreadsheet was very off when Exemplar had different values, but with recent discoveries, maybe I was correct all along.

I'm getting at 3.75 CD CS or better, haste being my strongest stat. It follow a 1 to 1 ratio to mastery at that inflection point, with crit only being worth 1/3 of haste or mastery. The more I play around with it, the more the priority order looks like CS(less than 3 HoPo) > Exo > 3 TV > HoW > DP TV > Judge > HW > Cons. With this, dropping Cons from the rotation completely loses me about 70 dps, at most. Delaying a CS for that hole, if it comes down to it, nets me more mana, not that it really matters unless you're proc empty, and pushing a CS that .75 GCD quicker seems to make up for most of that DPS loss.

I'm wondering if anyone else is getting this result, or if my modeling is still off. It's extremely hard, almost impossible, to tell from real world data if it's true or not, thanks to excessive RNG in the rotation. But it seems with more AoW procs, and prioritizing Exo over TV, I come closer to the Patchwerk type variance that I shoot for when I compare my real world data to what I model. Trinkets are Apparatus and Vessle. Apparatus has the added benefit of giving me a "bloodlust" every 2 mins, which may or may not be skewing my results that much. From what I can tell (from leaving trinket slot both empy and with different trinkets) it's not the case, but you can never be 100% certain.

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